Archeologly proves the Bible?

[Hokulele]

Which still has nothing to do with Judea under Herod.

ETA: This is in reference to DOC's post about census-taking and Syrian history.

 

[Hokulele]

How did Herod regain the thrown he lost?

What? Which Herod are you talking about? Do you know when King Herod died?

 

[DOC]

DOC, do you know what happened in Judea following Herod's death? Do you know when Herod died? Does the year 6 CE ring any bells?

Are you saying all of the Roman soldiers left the area after "they" put Herod back on the throne?

 

[Hokulele]

Are you saying all of the Roman soldiers left the area after "they" put Herod back on the throne?

Put which Herod on which throne? What does having Roman soldiers in the area have to do with census-taking?

You brought up the Roman soldiers crucifying Jesus, which has nothing to do with Judea being an independent kingdom under King Herod (do you know when he died?), how Judea became a Roman state in 6 CE, how they tried to revolt in 66 CE, and how they were finally crushed in 70 CE.

 

[Geezer]

How did Herod regain the thrown he lost?

What does that have to do with anything?
Are you saying that Iraq is now a US state?News to me (and the Iraqis I'm sure)

 

[DOC]

Put which Herod on which throne? What does having Roman soldiers in the area have to do with census-taking?

It doesn't matter which Herod. Bottom line is if you're an independent Jewish state why are Roman soldiers in the area. And somebody has to pay for the Roman soldiers in the area, right. How do you pay for that -- taxes. And taking a census is one way you determine who you can tax. Taking a census for tax reasons makes perfect sense whether you're and independent nation or not. Do you really believe the Romans in the area didn't expect to get some of that tax money. And to get tax money you have a census.

 

[TimCallahan]

As to the census: While Herod the Great was still alive, Judea was a tributary state. Money paid to Rome was collected by Herod. When Herod died in 4 BCE, his kingdom was divided between his children. Judea went to Herd Archelaus, who was deposed by the Romans in in CE 6. At that time, they took over Judea and ruled it directly, appointing procurators to administer the terretory and instituting a census for the purpose of taxation. Galilee was the inheritance of Herod Antipas. He was not deposed. Thus, there was no census instituted in Galilee. Had Joseph and Mary been living in Nazareth, they would not have been subject to direct Roman taxation and would not have been required to go to Bethlehem to be enrolled.

At the time of the Crucifixion, Pontius Pilatus was procurator of Judea and would have been the one to sentence Jesus in Jerusalem. Had Jesus never entered Judea, but had stayed in Galilee, he would have been dealt with by Herod Antipas.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Here is a website that backs up the book "Examine the Evidence"

From the article "Archaeology"

"[snip] Archaeologists also discovered an inscription fount in Antioch ascribing to Quirinius the governorship of Syria around 7 BC. Thus he was governor twice, in AD 6, as recorded by Josephus, and during the time of the early Roman census during which Christ was born. Luke does not ignore the later census conducted by Quirinius, but mentions it is Acts 5:37
[snip]"

http://www.defendingyourfaith.org/Archaeology.htm

I can show you that inscription, and what it says. As an aside, the Antioch here is not the one in Syria, it is Pisidian Antioch, smack in the middle of what nowadays is Turkey (some 300miles northwest of that Antioch in Syria).

But anyway, Richard Carrier in his article The Date of the Nativity in Luke shows that inscription and provides a translation:

GAIUS CARISTA[NIUS...]
SON OF GAIUS, SERGIUS FRONTO
CAESIANUS JUL[IUS...]
OFFICER IN CHARGE OF WORKS, PONTIFEX,
PRIEST, PREFECT OF
PUBLIUS SULPICIUS QUIRINIUS THE DUUMVIR,
PREFECT OF MARCUS SERVILIUS.
BY THIS MAN, THE FIRST OF ALL [WITH A]
PUBLIC DECREE OF THE DECEMVIRATE COUNCIL, THE STATUE
WAS SET UP.
BY GAIUS CARISTANIUS ...
FRONTO CAESIANUS
JULIUS, OFFICER IN CHARGE OF WORKS, COMMANDING OFFICER
OF THE TWELFTH LIGHTNING LEGION, PREFECT OF THE BOSPORAN COHORT,
PONTIFEX, PREFECT OF PUBLIUS SULPICIUS QUIRINIUS THE DUUMVIR,
PREFECT OF MARCUS SERVILIUS, PREFECT...​

Here is the link to the full article (although the URL skips automatically to the section on the Antioch Stones):
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/quirinius.html#Antioch

Needless to say, the inscription does not really ascribe "to Quirinius the governorship of Syria around 7 BC."

 

[Hokulele]

It doesn't matter which Herod. Bottom line is if you're an independent Jewish state why are Roman soldiers in the area. And somebody has to pay for the Roman soldiers in the area, right. How do you pay for that -- taxes. And taking a census is one way you determine who you can tax. Taking a census for tax reasons makes perfect sense whether you're and independent nation or not. Do you really believe the Romans in the area didn't expect to get some of that tax money. And to get tax money you have a census.

So the Iraqis are paying US taxes to host our soldiers?

I am sure that is going over well.


Oh, and read TimCallahan's post as that pretty much sums it up. Luke's account of the census is nonsense.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Ahmad Chalabi, whose Iraqi National Congress exile group advised the Bush administration before the war to topple Saddam and is a key voice on the council helping to run post-war Iraq, told Arabic television channel Al Jazeera: "Any real elections must be held on sound basis. There must be a census.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x245152

Are you on crack? Where does it say the U.S. is going to conduct the census?

How did Herod regain the thrown he lost?

Throne. Your general ignorance lends no credibility to your attempts at presenting evidence.

 

[eccles]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen,
Is this a private fight, or can anyone join in.

"So why did Roman Soldiers crucify Christ and not Jewish soldiers if it was an independent Jewish state? "

I don't think you guys read my reply about that.

Judea was an occupied provence of the Roman Empire and the Jews were not allowed to crucify anyone under Roman Law. If I remember rightly they were not allowed to execute anyone. Ciaphas. I quote from this site:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jesusbeforechrist.html

"From Ciaphas' house, Jesus probably would have been taken to Pilate in the Antonia fortress. It is thought Ciaphas had no authority to execute, but since he was a respected administrator Pilate may have simply acted on his advice and ordered Jesus' crucifixion."

I remember been taught that in Religious Knowledge class at school.

I hope that clears up that little matter.

 

[GreNME]

Okay, eccles, I can scan a few pages of the Ani papyrus-- which is what Gerald Massey, thus also Dorothy Murdock, used in bringing up the "Anup the Baptizer" fiction-- so in the interest of choosing ones that you feel are most interesting I'd like for you to pick them. Here is a list of smaller pictures of the plates, but the scans I can make are going to be higher resolution. We can go over the plates, identify the writing, identify the corresponding vignette, and then transliterate the heiroglyphs to characters that are more recognizable. From there we can translate them to English.

We can do this in a separate thread, so that DOC can keep making things up for the argument here. Anyone else interested can chime in as well.

 

[amb]

Show me evidence that there is a priest on this planet who publicly says Christ is not divine and is still a priest in the Church.

Well, there's retired but still active in his church, a Bishop no doubt, John Shelby Spong for one. He is the author of many books, including his most famous, ''Saving The Bible From Fundamentalist''. He claims people perceived the divine in Jesus, never claiming he WAS devine. He also says that ''god is the ground of all been'' not a big daddy who sits on his throne judging the quick and the dead.

 

[eccles]

Okay, eccles, I can scan a few pages of the Ani papyrus-- which is what Gerald Massey, thus also Dorothy Murdock, used in bringing up the "Anup the Baptizer" fiction-- so in the interest of choosing ones that you feel are most interesting I'd like for you to pick them. Here is a list of smaller pictures of the plates, but the scans I can make are going to be higher resolution. We can go over the plates, identify the writing, identify the corresponding vignette, and then transliterate the heiroglyphs to characters that are more recognizable. From there we can translate them to English.

We can do this in a separate thread, so that DOC can keep making things up for the argument here. Anyone else interested can chime in as well.

That is fantastic.

But you dont have to scan and download the images. Those thumbnails when clicked allow one to download the images from the web page as jpg files. They print on full A4 paper well. You try it and if you think the resolution is not good enough, well you will probably have to scan them as you said.

 

[eccles]

Papyrus of Ani

GreNME
I just had a quick look through my stack of books on Egypt. I found my copy of the Book of the Dead - the E.A. Wallis Budge translation. I also found Herodotus: "An Account of Egypt".

I have shelves full of this stuff. I shall have to dust them off and sort them. Trouble is, this Forum takes up much of my time and I am enjoying it. I am trying to finish Murdock. I must say, the more I read the more sense it makes to me with my Roman Catholic background.

Thank "god" I am Atheist.

 

[DOC]

As to the census: While Herod the Great was still alive, Judea was a tributary state. Money paid to Rome was collected by Herod. When Herod died in 4 BCE, his kingdom was divided between his children. Judea went to Herd Archelaus, who was deposed by the Romans in in CE 6. At that time, they took over Judea and ruled it directly, appointing procurators to administer the terretory and instituting a census for the purpose of taxation. Galilee was the inheritance of Herod Antipas. He was not deposed. Thus, there was no census instituted in Galilee. Had Joseph and Mary been living in Nazareth, they would not have been subject to direct Roman taxation and would not have been required to go to Bethlehem to be enrolled.

That's what you assume happened regarding taxes but what if the Roman's who were responsible for putting Herod Aptipas's father back on the throne said we want some of that money for protection. Do you really think he has the power and forces to say no. Some people think everything is black and white and there is nothing going on behind the scenes. The Romans had the power to basically do anything they wanted in that area. If they wanted a census -- after reading how they had Herod the Great in their pocket -- there is no doubt in my mind they could have got a census whether it was Galilee, Judea, or wherever.

 

[boloboffin]

That's what you assume happened regarding taxes but what if the Roman's who were responsible for putting Herod Aptipas's father back on the throne said we want some of that money for protection. Do you really think he has the power and forces to say no. Some people think everything is black and white and there is nothing going on behind the scenes. The Romans had the power to basically do anything they wanted in that area. If they wanted a census -- after reading how they had Herod the Great in their pocket -- there is no doubt in my mind they could have got a census whether it was Galilee, Judea, or wherever.

But what is your evidence that they did?

 

[DOC]

Throne. Your general ignorance lends no credibility to your attempts at presenting evidence.

So I spell throne wrong once out of the many times I spelled it right. Give me a B+ then instead of an A. You would get an A+ in Ad Homology.

 

[DOC]

Needless to say, the inscription does not really ascribe "to Quirinius the governorship of Syria around 7 BC."

Then why would you say several sources says it does? And when would you say the inscription implies or states Quiriinius was governor?

 

[DOC]

Posted by DOC
Show me evidence that there is a priest on this planet who publicly says Christ is not divine and is still a priest in the Church.

Well, there's retired but still active in his church, a Bishop no doubt, John Shelby Spong for one. He is the author of many books, including his most famous, ''Saving The Bible From Fundamentalist''. He claims people perceived the divine in Jesus, never claiming he WAS devine. He also says that ''god is the ground of all been'' not a big daddy who sits on his throne judging the quick and the dead.

I was talking about the Catholic Church whereas Spong is Episcopalian.