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Archeologly proves the Bible?

If you don't have dial-up and a older computer which is the case with me.
Your technological limitations are not a justifiable excuse to ignore the facts.

Like I said, DOC. You have only proven that this is important and destroy's your argument. Any future use of the "Luke is a great historian" will be taken as a blatant and willful dishonesty, since we know you know full well that Luke invented complete nonsense to support his religious beliefs.


So much for the Geisler's list, eh?
 
If you don't have dial-up and a older computer which is the case with me. I just find it interesting that that particular quote is nowhere else on the web other than that business website with the confusing punctuation where the author heard it off a TV show.


So if you are blind and cannot read the books that are cited here, they don't count a source material? If it isn't on the internet, it doesn't exist?

Interesting assertions.
 
NO ONE IS DENYING THAT ROME CONDUCTED A CENSUS AT REGULAR INTERVALS. They are saying that the Roman census was not extended to Israel.

And whoever is saying this whether it might be a priest or whoever might be wrong. Bottom line is that Roman troops conquered the territory and put Herod back on the throne. Do you really believe they didn't expect something in return. The Roman troops put Herod back on the thrown, after he went to Rome, and they could have easily taken him off. I wouldn't call that a independent nation, I'd call it a Roman territory (with Herod as the puppet) no matter what anyone else wants to call it. And the Romans could have recommended the census to Herod, just like the US might have recommended a census be taken to the current Iraqi leader:

From Reuters by way of Salin:

Nov. 29 — DUBAI (Reuters) - A member of Iraq's U.S.-backed Governing Council said on Saturday a census must precede any elections paving the way to Iraqi sovereignty and citizenship should be restored to Iraqis denaturalized by Saddam Hussein.

Ahmad Chalabi, whose Iraqi National Congress exile group advised the Bush administration before the war to topple Saddam and is a key voice on the council helping to run post-war Iraq, told Arabic television channel Al Jazeera: "Any real elections must be held on sound basis. There must be a census.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x245152
 
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I've found another source and from a Christian site. Here's a paragraph from the site:

Where was Christ born? According to the Gospels, he was habitually called "Jesus of Nazareth." The New Testament writers have endeavored to leave the impression that Nazareth of Galilee was his home town. The Synoptic Gospels represent that thirty years of his life were spent there. Notwithstanding this, Matthew declares that he was born in Bethlehem in fulfillment of a prophecy in the Book of Micah. But the prophecy of Micah has nothing whatever to do with Jesus; it prophesies the coming of a military leader, not a divine teacher. Matthew's application of this prophecy to Christ strengthens the suspicion that his Gospel is not history, but romance. Luke has it that his birth occurred at Bethlehem, whither his mother had gone with her husband, to make the enrollment called for by Augustus Caesar. Of the general census mentioned by Luke, nothing is known in Roman history. But suppose such a census was taken. The Roman custom, when an enrollment was made, was that every man was to report at his place of residence. The head of the family alone made report. In no case was his wife, or any dependent, required to be with him. In the face of this established custom, Luke declares that Joseph left his home in Nazareth and crossed two provinces to go Bethlehem for the enrollment; and not only this, but that he had to be accompanied by his wife, Mary, who was on the very eve of becoming a mother. This surely is not history, but fable. The story that Christ was born at Bethlehem was a necessary part of the program which made him the Messiah, and the descendant of King David. The Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem, the city of David; and by what Renan calls a roundabout way, his birth was made to take place there. The story of his birth in the royal city is plainly fictitious.
edited to add link:
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...+Luke+gospel+census&cd=12&hl=es&ct=clnk&gl=es
 
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If you don't have dial-up and a older computer which is the case with me. I just find it interesting that that particular quote is nowhere else on the web other than that business website with the confusing punctuation where the author heard it off a TV show.

Allow me to attempt to recap: Once upon a time in a thread far far away, Joobz linked to a video in which biblical scholar Jerome Murphy O'Connor explained why certain elements in Luke's Gospel are historically dubious. You said your computer was old and bent, and your internet connection was grizzled (I paraphrase), so you couldn't easily watch videos. I understand the misery of slow connections. I really do. Sure, you could have gone to a public library or a university library, but you'd need headphones/ear buds, and that would be a pain.

So, you requested a transcript; Joobz very nicely supplied you with an article that gave an account of the television show, including direct quotations from O'Connor. Again, this was at YOUR request. And you're still not satisfied? Really? Why? Because it hasn't been copied and pasted all over the web? Does rampant plagiarism make something more true?

Oh, and the confusing punctuation? As Cleon explained quite clearly, it's NOT CONFUSING. It's standard practice in journalistic-style writing that if a quotation encompasses more than one paragraph, there is no close quotation mark at the end of the first paragraph (to indicate that the quotation continues), but there is an open quotation mark at the beginning of the next paragraph. Cleon said that if you didn't believe him, you should ask an English teacher. Hi, I'm an English teacher. I've taught more college writing classes than I can count. I've graded an unfathomable number of papers. Believe me, I've seen confusing punctuation. This example is perfectly clear.

And even if the word "nonsense" had been placed in quotation marks accidentally, it's completely irrelevant. O'Connor's point about Luke's account of the census does not depend on one word. He argues quite compellingly that Luke's account is mistaken, to use a more neutral word. Do you have anything to say about the substance of O'Connor's argument?
 
And whoever is saying this whether it might be a priest or whoever might be wrong. Bottom line is that Roman troops conquered the territory and put Herod back on the throne. Do you really believe they didn't expect something in return.


Hey, we haven't seen an argument from incredulity in at least 5 pages!

The Roman troops put Herod back on the thrown, after he went to Rome, and they could have easily taken him off. I wouldn't call that a independent nation, I'd call it a Roman territory (with Herod as the puppet) no matter what anyone else wants to call it.


And I'd like to call my car a Ferrari, no matter that everyone else calls it a Honda.

And the Romans could have recommended the census to Herod, just like the US might have recommended a census be taken to the current Iraqi leader:

From Reuters by way of Salin:

Nov. 29 — DUBAI (Reuters) - A member of Iraq's U.S.-backed Governing Council said on Saturday a census must precede any elections paving the way to Iraqi sovereignty and citizenship should be restored to Iraqis denaturalized by Saddam Hussein.

Ahmad Chalabi, whose Iraqi National Congress exile group advised the Bush administration before the war to topple Saddam and is a key voice on the council helping to run post-war Iraq, told Arabic television channel Al Jazeera: "Any real elections must be held on sound basis. There must be a census.


Right, an Iraqi census by the Iraqi government, not a US census.

If you bother to read the original passages in Luke, it is clear that it is a Roman census being conducted by Caeser Augustus, not an Israeli census by Herod.
 
Oh, and the confusing punctuation? As Cleon explained quite clearly, it's NOT CONFUSING. It's standard practice in journalistic-style writing that if a quotation encompasses more than one paragraph, there is no close quotation mark at the end of the first paragraph (to indicate that the quotation continues), but there is an open quotation mark at the beginning of the next paragraph. Cleon said that if you didn't believe him, you should ask an English teacher. Hi, I'm an English teacher. I've taught more college writing classes than I can count. I've graded an unfathomable number of papers. Believe me, I've seen confusing punctuation. This example is perfectly clear.

And we are supposed to believe you?
We need at least three (3) links to different websites stating that you are an English teacher. And none of these biased liberal university websites either. Good ol' fashioned conservative Christian websites.

And they must be in plain text, none of these taxing videos or flash. Slow connection remember.
Also, I am going to desinstall acrobat reader. And Word from my computer. Because I feel like it. So none of the website can contain PdF or word document. Rtf is fine, provided it is not longer than a couple of paragraph.

Now, get to it! Your testimony is worthless otherwise!


/sarcasm.
 
Here's another source who rejects the Luke Census story.
It's long and I've hilited the pertinent stuff, so you can follow the entire exchange or scroll down to the hilited bit.

James writes:

I have enjoyed your website very much. Thank you for your hard
work. I have some questions for you as to the validity of the book
of Acts. I found this book by Dr. Gregory A. Boyd (a conservative
scholar) called "Jesus Under Siege." He makes many claims about
the accuracy of Acts. I was wondering what your knowledge of these
issues are?

JESUS UNDER SIEGE pages 130-131:

Luke's account frequently aligns with what we learn from other
ancient historians. For example, his unusual account of the sudden
death of Agrippa, his record of a major famine "in the days of
Claudius," his identification of Ananus as the high priest in A.D.
47, and his record of a certain Egyptian revolutionary who led
thousands to their death, have all been confirmed by cross-checking
them with the writings of Josephus.

Perhaps the most impressive feature of Luke's narrative is the way
he consistently gets the titles of certain dignitaries right. This
was particularly difficult to do of officials within the ancient
Roman empire because the titles of dignitaries, as well as the
status of the provinces they ruled, changed frequently. Yet Luke
consistently gets them right, a fact that must bolster our
confidence in his ability to relate reliable history. As Stephen
Neill puts it, "Experience shows that nothing is more difficult
than to get titles exactly right." But what we find in Luke is that
"exactly the right title is used at exactly the right time and place."

Archeology has confirmed Luke's accuracy on a host of other matters
as well. His detailed knowledge of the ever-changing political
topography of Rome, its geography, roadways, and means of travel,
have all been confirmed by archeological evidence. More particularly,
Luke's remarkably detailed account of Paul's sea voyage and shipwreck
in Chapter 27 has been called "one of the most instructive documents
for the knowledge of ancient seamanship." His accuracy in portraying
the widely divergent cultures and customs of various regions
throughout the Roman world has been frequently noted as well, as
has his command of the complex legal processes that were employed
in diverse regions of the empire.

It was evidence such as this that led Dr. Sherwin-White, arguably
the ablest historian of ancient Roman law in our time, to conclude
that: "The confirmation of historicity [in Acts] is overwhelming...
any attempts to reject its historicity even in matters of detail must
now appear absurd."
Response to James:
Accuracy and Reliability in Acts

I have reproduced all of James' quotation from Boyd to illustrate the extent to which weak arguments will be driven in order to defend a conservative apologetic position. None of the statements put forward by Boyd has anything to do with the reliability of Act's supposed historicity. Even if we were to assume (which I would not necessarily do) that all of Boyd's statements are accurate, they prove nothing about Luke's intent to be historically faithful to his core subject. It is not Luke's "ability to relate reliable history" that is at issue here. He may have had the ability: the question is, was that his purpose and did he carry it out where early Christian history was concerned? In view of the tendentious nature of Acts, and its overt contradiction of other more reliable evidence, particularly in the Pauline epistles, this is highly doubtful. In any case, the best historical novelist will attempt to set his fictional account within a setting which is as accurate as possible, and Luke may well have been similarly scrupulous. It is significant that Boyd does not offer a single example of how a detail about a specifically Christian element in Acts has been proven accurate by some independent corroboration. In fact, Luke's "ability" is sorely wanting in the crucial matter of the circumstances of Jesus' birth. We all know that there is no evidence of a universal census under Augustus, and if Luke is simply enlarging on the Judean census of Quirinius in 6 CE, he has failed to align this with his placement of the Nativity before the death of Herod in 4 BCE. Quite a glaring flaw. I'm also a bit skeptical of Boyd's overemphasis on the matter of titles. When one has little of importance to appeal to, one must play up the relatively insignificant. (I confess I have not encountered this claim about Acts before, so I can neither dispute nor verify it.)

It's a little ironic that Boyd points to the authentic atmosphere of the sea voyage in Acts 27. Perhaps that authenticity can be explained by the fact that Luke has simply taken and reworked a common type of Hellenistic romance, putting his own characters into it. The much-discussed "we" passage phenomenon found in the latter part of Acts, which used to be taken as evidence of a 'diary' source used by Luke, has recently been shown to be a common stylistic device of Hellenistic writers when recounting sea voyages. Since corroboration anywhere in the Christian record for this episode in Paul's career is totally lacking, we can put the whole thing down (and some have) to a fictional creation on Luke's part, heavily borrowing from the 'adventure' genre of his time.

Dr. Sherwin-White may have been an able historian of ancient Roman law, but New Testament scholarship was not his specialty, and if the quote by him is accurate, it shows that he was pontificating on a subject about which he possessed little genuine understanding (or neutrality).

edited to add link:
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...+Luke+gospel+census&cd=34&hl=es&ct=clnk&gl=es
 
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...And even if the word "nonsense" had been placed in quotation marks accidentally, it's completely irrelevant. O'Connor's point about Luke's account of the census does not depend on one word. He argues quite compellingly that Luke's account is mistaken, to use a more neutral word. Do you have anything to say about the substance of O'Connor's argument?
.

Yes, if this priest (who is probably still a priest and thus still thinks Christ is divine or he would be removed from the priesthood) does think Luke is mistaken he could be wrong.

Which is why others disagree with him:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/census-luke2.html

And Sir Ramsay backs up this website up by discovering that Quirinius was governor of Syria in about 7 B.C. (according to the book "Examine the Evidence" Ralph Muncaster, 2004, Page 274.)
 
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And we are supposed to believe you?
We need at least three (3) links to different websites stating that you are an English teacher. And none of these biased liberal university websites either. Good ol' fashioned conservative Christian websites.

And they must be in plain text, none of these taxing videos or flash. Slow connection remember.
Also, I am going to desinstall acrobat reader. And Word from my computer. Because I feel like it. So none of the website can contain PdF or word document. Rtf is fine, provided it is not longer than a couple of paragraph.

Now, get to it! Your testimony is worthless otherwise!


/sarcasm.

Dang, you caught me. I just wanted you all to think I was an English teacher because it's such a well-paid and glamorous profession.



Oh, wait.
 
Yes, if this priest (who is probably still a priest and thus still thinks Christ is divine or he would be removed from the priesthood) does think Luke is mistaken he could be wrong.

Which is why others disagree with him:
Nothing in your link actually addresses Dr. Father Murphy-O'Connor's Point, that Judea was an indepentant Jewish state and not subject to a roman census.

I think the good priest put it best, "It's complete nonsense."
As he says "Luke made a mistake. Ah, then howcome he was born in Bethlehem? So he has to invent the census to get him to Bethlehem."
Luke invented stories to create a compelling narrative.

ETA: Your "He's still a priest" game is fully dishonest. If he wasn't a priest anymore, you would claim that it is proof of his bias and why he isn't trustworthy.
 
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.

Yes, if this priest (who is probably still a priest and thus still thinks Christ is divine or he would be removed from the priesthood) does think Luke is mistaken he could be wrong.

Which is why others disagree with him:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/census-luke2.html

And Sir Ramsay backs up this website up by discovering that Quirinius was governor of Syria in about 7 B.C. (according to the book "Examine the Evidence" Ralph Muncaster, 2004, Page 274.)

So, no, you don't have any substantive argument to make at all. Instead, you present (again) the parenthetical irrelevancy that O'Connor is still a priest. Yes, he's a priest; yes, he presumably believes in the divinity of Christ; but NO, being a responsible scholar, he doesn't believe that Luke is historically accurate.

Second, you have a link to a website that could use some proofreading and editing (Dr. Luke? He sounds like an intern who's trying to come off as hip and friendly). The brief argument is full of weasel words and not much evidence (weasel words have been highlighted):

There was definitely a taxing during this time and therefore, quite possible [sic], an associated census, the details of which may have been common knowledge in Luke's time, but are now lost to us.

The article concludes:

Scholars have advanced a number of other altogether viable explanations which would allow Luke's record (and therefore the Bible) to continue to be regarded as 100% trustworthy.

What scholars? What explanations? In what way are they "altogether viable"? I'm sorry, but you need a whole lot more than that vagueness to "allow Luke's record (and therefore the Bible) to continue to be regarded as 100% trustworthy."

Oh, and again, you have the venerable and extremely dead Sir William Ramsey, whose proper title you still can't work out.
 
.

Yes, if this priest (who is probably still a priest and thus still thinks Christ is divine or he would be removed from the priesthood) does think Luke is mistaken he could be wrong.

Which is why others disagree with him:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/census-luke2.html

And Sir Ramsay backs up this website up by discovering that Quirinius was governor of Syria in about 7 B.C. (according to the book "Examine the Evidence" Ralph Muncaster, 2004, Page 274.)

It would be seemly to name your main source correctly, don't you think?
 
Nothing in your link actually addresses Dr. Father Murphy-O'Connor's Point, that Judea was an indepentant Jewish state and not subject to a roman census
So why did Roman Soldiers crucify Christ and not Jewish soldiers if it was an independent Jewish state?
 
So why did Roman Soldiers crucify Christ and not Jewish soldiers if it was an independent Jewish state?
Who says they did? The same text that made up the census story?
 
So why did Roman Soldiers crucify Christ and not Jewish soldiers if it was an independent Jewish state?

I didn't know that the Romans crucified Jesus as an infant, I thought that it supposedly happened ca 30-33 CE, ie after the Romans made Judea a part of the Roman Empire.
 
Biblical knowledge (or lack of) in the United States

“Americans buy more than 20 million new Bibles every year to add to the four that the average American has at home. Yet the state of American biblical knowledge is abysmal. A Gallup survey found that less than half of Americans can name the first book of the Bible (Genesis), only a third know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount (Billy Graham is a popular answer) and a quarter do not know what is celebrated at Easter (the resurrection, the foundational event of Christianity). Sixty per cent cannot name half the ten commandments; 12% think Noah was married to Joan of Arc. George Gallup, a leading Evangelical as well as a premier pollster, describes America as “a nation of biblical illiterates”. The Economist. December 2007

How do you like that?
Show what the mentality of the citizens of the United Christian States of America is like.

 
It would be seemly to name your main source correctly, don't you think?

Here is a website that backs up the book "Examine the Evidence"

From the article "Archaeology"

"At one time, it was conceded as fact that Luke was entirely wrong about the events surrounding the birth of Jesus. Critics argued that there was no census, and that everyone did not have to return to his ancestral home. They also argued that Quirinius was not governor of Syria at that time, but became governor around AD 6.
Archaeological discoveries show that the Romans did have a regular enrollment of taxpayers and held censuses every fourteen years, a procedure begun during the reign of Augustus.
Archaeologists also discovered an inscription fount in Antioch ascribing to Quirinius the governorship of Syria around 7 BC. Thus he was governor twice, in AD 6, as recorded by Josephus, and during the time of the early Roman census during which Christ was born. Luke does not ignore the later census conducted by Quirinius, but mentions it is Acts 5:37
An Egyptian papyrus was also discovered which gives directions for the conduct of a census. It reads: "Because of the approaching census it is necessary that all those residing for any cause away from their homes should at once prepare to return to their own governments in order that they may complete the family registration of the enrollment and that the tilled lands may retain those belonging to them."

http://www.defendingyourfaith.org/Archaeology.htm
 
I didn't know that the Romans crucified Jesus as an infant, I thought that it supposedly happened ca 30-33 CE, ie after the Romans made Judea a part of the Roman Empire.

How did Herod regain the thrown he lost?
 

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