Israel bans use of word "Nakba" in textbooks

[Marc39]

Look Marc39 I don't really care about the first Nakba. You deny it and no amount of questioning is going to change that. What I want to move on to is The 2nd Nakba. The one you think should happen in the future. The 2nd Nakba will be the removal of non-Jews from land west of the Jordan. Is this not your view?

Look, The Fool, there are 55 Muslim countries for those "non-Jews" who put your knickers in a twist. There is only one Jewish state. I think we should create another 5 or 6 Jewish states before we make a 56th Muslim state. And, I know this is one cause you can really get behind!

 

[Thunder]

Actually, the 2nd Nakba happened in 1967, when Israel cleansed the West Bank of around 200,000 Arabs...sending them to Jordan.

 

[a_unique_person]

This is what you got from my post? Who is talking about Rabin's orders? Do you generally pull arguments out of thin air?

Re-read from Morris: "no access to the materials in the IDFA [Israel Defense Forces Archive] or Haganah archive and precious little to firsthand military materials deposited elsewhere."

Fine, so let them open the materials to historians, and debunk the first hand accounts.

 

[FireGarden]

This is what you got from my post? Who is talking about Rabin's orders? Do you generally pull arguments out of thin air?

I freely admit to not getting the point of your post, and ask for clarification.

Re-read from Morris: "no access to the materials in the IDFA [Israel Defense Forces Archive] or Haganah archive and precious little to firsthand military materials deposited elsewhere."

So what are you saying? That Morris knew what was in the archives without reading them? That Morris plagiarised the work of people who had read them? Or that Morris had access to other archives?

Or are you saying that it was a lucky guess? Because you don't seem to be saying that Morris fabricated documents.

You seemed to be implying that Morris is wrong. If I mis-inferred that, and you're simply implying that Morris is unoriginal, then please... Carry on. I don't think of him as original. The name "New Historians" is utterly naff. It might have been new to some in Israel, but hardly to the world.

In how many Israeli and non-Israeli universities is Morris' book used?

Not so much concerned about their slight political alignment differences, more that they belong to the 'new historian' bloc of shoddy revisionists.

"slight political alignment differences"? Morris is an apologist who thinks Ben-Gurion should have gone further. Pappe outright calls it ethnic cleansing and condemns it.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380984

But I do not identify with Ben-Gurion. I think he made a serious historical mistake in 1948. Even though he understood the demographic issue and the need to establish a Jewish state without a large Arab minority, he got cold feet during the war. In the end, he faltered.

[...] If he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleansed the whole country - the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. It may yet turn out that this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion - rather than a partial one - he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations.

I'll tell you the above is either Morris or Pappe. Do you really need to check the source to find out which?

 

[The Fool]

Look, The Fool, there are 55 Muslim countries for those "non-Jews" who put your knickers in a twist. There is only one Jewish state. I think we should create another 5 or 6 Jewish states before we make a 56th Muslim state. And, I know this is one cause you can really get behind!

ok...lets take the new muslim state out of it. Lets assume that it does not happen. Finished....will never happen. Now this leaves a very pressing issue, what happens to the people?

You seem to infer that they should go to some other Muslim country. Is this your suggestion for what should happen to them?

see...I'm trying to not dwell on the past and the issue of the Nakba. What I'm trying to explore is when the next one could/will happen. Also wondering what sort of coverage of it in school textbooks you would be happy with.

 

[Marc39]

Fine, so let them open the materials to historians, and debunk the first hand accounts.

The "materials" are "open". Millions of files from Israeli, American and British archives have been declassified. Not one page pertaining to any mythical Zionist plan for mass Arab expulsion has been uncovered. The reason being there was no such plan.

 

[Marc39]

ok...lets take the new muslim state out of it. Lets assume that it does not happen. Finished....will never happen. Now this leaves a very pressing issue, what happens to the people?

You seem to infer that they should go to some other Muslim country. Is this your suggestion for what should happen to them?

see...I'm trying to not dwell on the past and the issue of the Nakba. What I'm trying to explore is when the next one could/will happen. Also wondering what sort of coverage of it in school textbooks you would be happy with.

You've just been through a harrowing experience of having to acknowledge in public a so-called past nakba is a myth, despite previoius protestations to the contrary. So, why attempt to create a future so-called nakba? Ever consider that nakbas just may not be your forte?

Now, if you want to dwell on a real nakba, do so with the Jewish nakba of the almost one-million Jews expelled from Arab countries and ponder how we're going to compensate them for the estimated hundreds of billions of dollars in lost property.

 

[bigjelmapro]

I freely admit to not getting the point of your post, and ask for clarification.

Re-read it.

So what are you saying? That Morris knew what was in the archives without reading them? That Morris plagiarised the work of people who had read them? Or that Morris had access to other archives?

How do I know what Morris was thinking when he made that statement? What really matters is his admission. Move on from there.

Or are you saying that it was a lucky guess? Because you don't seem to be saying that Morris fabricated documents.

Memoirs of Rabin isn't considered IDF or official government archives. Try again.

You seemed to be implying that Morris is wrong. If I mis-inferred that, and you're simply implying that Morris is unoriginal, then please... Carry on. I don't think of him as original. The name "New Historians" is utterly naff. It might have been new to some in Israel, but hardly to the world.

Nope. Just shoddy in his research and trumpeting the same drivel the ALA have stated from the get-go. He's admitted to this, so has Pappe. So what's you point again?

"slight political alignment differences"? Morris is an apologist who thinks Ben-Gurion should have gone further. Pappe outright calls it ethnic cleansing and condemns it.

Morris has changed his position several times in light of actual evidence and at least has the cojones to admit that he's made errors. Pappe, on the other hand, is stubborn as a mule and reluctant even with a ocean full of errors pointed out to him. He makes good sales on his books outside of Israel though....guess that's the motivation.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Find it quite entertaining how an Aussie (TF) bickers about Israel being some sort of colonizer and ethnic cleanser. You guys took over an entire continent and murdered the brunt of the original inhabitants there. Just like the Americans, the British, the Spanish, and the Portugese, you guys think there's a date one passes, make nice amends by writing a pleasant constitution and set aside a sliver of land on the millions of acres/dunams for the 1-2% of those remaining and everything's honkey-dorey.

There's really nothing you guys can say in regards to this. There's no, but but this, but but that.

 

[Marc39]

Pappe, on the other hand, is stubborn as a mule and reluctant even with a ocean full of errors pointed out to him. He makes good sales on his books outside of Israel though....guess that's the motivation.

Ilan Pappe on...Ilan Pappe...

There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what's happened.

I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings.

Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers.

Ilan Pappe, Baudouin Loos, Le Soir, Nov. 29, 1999

 

[FireGarden]

How do I know what Morris was thinking when he made that statement? What really matters is his admission. Move on from there.

No. What really matters is whether he is right or wrong. You seem to claim he hasn't had access to sources of infomation which can justify his claims. One of his claims is that there are signed expulsion orders by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin.

Memoirs of Rabin isn't considered IDF or official government archives. Try again.

What about signed military orders?

Nope. Just shoddy in his research and trumpeting the same drivel the ALA have stated from the get-go. He's admitted to this, so has Pappe. So what's you point again?

Where has he admitted being shoddy? Where has he admitted trumpeting anyone's drivel? My point is: Morris claims the expulsion orders exist. So either claim he made them up or admit he had access to a source which justified his claim. Or you can claim he got lucky. Or come up with another explanation.

Simple question: do the expulsion orders signed by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin exist?

Find it quite entertaining how an Aussie (TF) bickers about Israel being some sort of colonizer and ethnic cleanser. You guys took over an entire continent and murdered the brunt of the original inhabitants there. Just like the Americans, the British, the Spanish, and the Portugese, you guys think there's a date one passes, make nice amends by writing a pleasant constitution and set aside a sliver of land on the millions of acres/dunams for the 1-2% of those remaining and everything's honkey-dorey.

There's really nothing you guys can say in regards to this. There's no, but but this, but but that.

Where are any of the above atrocities denied? Which nations have banned reference to them from schoolbooks? Don't compare Israel with the USA/Australia on this matter. Compare it to Turkey.

Oh look over there! There's something else!!!
AARRGGGHHHH!!!!!111!!!

 

[FireGarden]

You've just been through a harrowing experience of having to acknowledge in public a so-called past nakba is a myth, despite previoius protestations to the contrary.

I think you have yourself confused with The Fool. Idol worship can do that.

Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation.

AUP,
might I recommend a facepalm? It hurts less.

 

[bigjelmapro]

No. What really matters is whether he is right or wrong. You seem to claim he hasn't had access to sources of infomation which can justify his claims. One of his claims is that there are signed expulsion orders by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin.

Again, I didn't make that claim, Morris stated so when he was confronted by his lack of evidence when writing his book.

What about signed military orders?

What about them? Why are you even bringing this up?

Where has he admitted being shoddy? Where has he admitted trumpeting anyone's drivel? My point is: Morris claims the expulsion orders exist. So either claim he made them up or admit he had access to a source which justified his claim. Or you can claim he got lucky. Or come up with another explanation.

Claims, but never produced. And yeah, I took the bait into this bit of a deflection you've set up. What it has originally to do with what I've stated is beyond me.

Again, look up his admission. His lack of access to these archives proves that his work is shoddy (1. of poor quality or inferior workmanship)

Simple question: do the expulsion orders signed by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin exist?

2nd bait question, do they? Have they ever been produced? Signed orders? Avi Shlaim doesn't even make this claim.

Where are any of the above atrocities denied? Which nations have banned reference to them from schoolbooks? Don't compare Israel with the USA/Australia on this matter. Compare it to Turkey.

Who even denied said occurrences? I never did. What I do deny is the claim, as made by Pappe, that there was an organized standing (and signed) order and movement to ethnically cleanse Arabs from the area deemed as Palestine.

What I stated above is a reaction to being judged by those who live in countries, and continue to live there, where far worse and on a much much greater scale atrocities have been committed. Difference being is what? 80 years? 90? Just like to remind you of the utter hypocrisy.

The bit you stated about Morris not completing the expulsion of Arabs? Well, those respective countries did complete the expulsion of their respective (and actual, as in completely and true) indigenous peoples. Convenient eh?

 

[Marc39]

Compare it to Turkey.

Oh look over there! There's something else!!!
AARRGGGHHHH!!!!!111!!!

As far as I know, the Turkish government continues to maintain a posture of refusing to acknowledge the genocide of Armenians.

 

[ddt]

Ilan Pappe on...Ilan Pappe...

Ilan Pappe, Baudouin Loos, Le Soir, Nov. 29, 1999

Nothing new. Quotes ripped out of context by CAMERA.

See here for my reaction.

 

[Marc39]

Nothing new. Quotes ripped out of context by CAMERA.

See here for my reaction.

You didn't know the simple difference between binding and non-binding UN resolutions pertaining to the Jewish settlements and you thought the Palestine Mandate and British Mandate were the same, until I educated you on the matters. 'Nuff said.

 

[Marc39]

"New Historian" Benny Morris on "New Historian" Ilan Pappe and his historically bogus book, "A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples"...

Unfortunately much of what Pappé tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappé's historical methodology and his political proclivities. For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable.

For additional insight into Ilan Pappe's historical fiction, read what else Morris has to say...

http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/04-03-22benny-morris-The New Republic-1.pdf

 

[Pardalis]

I see this thread hasn't progressed one iota, you guys are still bickering about the past.

"My historian says this"
"No, my historian says this"

When will you guys start to worry about the present? The present is what matters, and the only thing we can influence.

 

[ddt]

Worse, still, neither Morris nor Pappe use Arab archives, resulting in a one-sided, often-anti-Zionist, point-of-view and, ultimately, a flawed historiography.

First of all, Ilan Pappé is the only Israeli historian of the subject matter who uses Arab sources.

Secondly, I'm really puzzled by the logic in the above statement. By only using Israeli sources, you get an anti-Zionist POV? How then? It's like saying that by only using German source of the period, you get a pro-Holocaust POV, whereas, if you'd also use Jewish sources (e.g., the Anne Frank and Etty Hillesum diaries), you get a more nuanced look and that whole Holocaust thing was not so bad after all.

 

[Marc39]

I'm really puzzled

Indeed.

In case you just missed it, I commend to you fellow New Historian Benny Morris's unflattering assessment of Pappe's ahistorical work...

http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/04-03-22benny-morris-The New Republic-1.pdf