Israel bans use of word "Nakba" in textbooks

... Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.
Still using that book? Nice.

Benny Morris's Reign of Error, Revisited
Such plaudits, however, were undeserved. Far from unearthing new facts or offering a novel interpretation of the Palestinian exodus, The Birth recycled the standard Arab narrative of the conflict. Morris portrayed the Palestinians as the hapless victims of unprovoked Jewish aggression. Israel's very creation became the "original sin" underlying the perpetuation of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Had there been an academic foundation to Morris's revisionism, such acclaim may have been warranted. But rather than incorporate new Israeli source material, Morris did little more than rehash old historiography. While laying blame for the Palestinian refugee crisis on the actions of the Israeli Defense Forces and its pre-state precursor, the Haganah, Morris failed to consult the millions of declassified documents in their archives, even as other historians used them in painstaking research.[3]

Once this fact was publicly exposed,[4] Morris conceded that he had "no access to the materials in the IDFA [Israel Defense Forces Archive] or Haganah archive and precious little to firsthand military materials deposited elsewhere."
[5] Yet instead of acknowledging the implications of this omission upon his conclusions, Morris sought to use this "major methodological flaw" as the rationale for a new edition of The Birth, which he claimed would include new source-material.[6]

Not only does Morris miss the opportunity to reconcile his evolving positions regarding Arab and Palestinian culpability for the origin and perpetuation of the refugee problem, but he also intensifies efforts to give academic respectability to the Arab indictment of Zionism as "a colonizing and expansionist ideology and movement ... intent on politically, or even physically, dispossessing and supplanting the Arabs."[12] In the original version of The Birth, Morris traced this alleged intention to the late 1930s and 1940s, claiming that Zionist leaders had despaired of achieving a Jewish majority in Palestine through mass immigration and had instead come to view the expulsion or "transfer" of the Arab population as the best means "to establish a Jewish state without an Arab minority, or with as small an Arab minority as possible."[13]

In reality, the archives show that, far from despairing of mass immigration, Zionist leaders in the 1930s worried about the country's short-term absorptive capacity should millions of Jews enter Palestine. While in an implicit acknowledgment of their inaccuracy, Morris removed some of The Birth's most inaccurate or distorted quotes about transfer,[14] he, nevertheless, reverts to the problematic technique of relying on a small number of Zionist statements either taken out of context or simply misrepresented. In The Birth Revisited, Morris takes his initial claim further by attempting to prove, in a new chapter trumpeted as one of the book's chief innovations, that "the displacement of Arabs from Palestine or from areas of Palestine that would become the Jewish State was inherent in Zionist ideology" and could be traced back to the father of political Zionism, Theodor Herzl.[15]

Plenty of more interesting tidbits on that book which you so adamantly quote.

Time to try again there...perhaps start another misguided thread?
 
Both Pappe and Morris (the latter which admitted so) didn't use the Israeli archives to justify their claims. Pappe is even worse and uses simply the witness testimony of a Palestinian Arabs to make his claims.

From Morris to Pappe is not really a spectrum, its more of a corner.

What is the problem with eye witness testimony?
 
Still using that book? Nice.
Plenty of more interesting tidbits on that book which you so adamantly quote.
Time to try again there...perhaps start another misguided thread?


Benny Morris on Israel-bashers who quote him incorrectly to try to support their weak and pitiful cases...

Israel-haters are fond of citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments.

But, just to clarify Morris's position, so often misrepresented...

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing".

Mr. Morris, why do people lie about the history of Israel and the Jews?

The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two

Thanks, Mr. Morris, for the much-needed history and psychology lessons.

Source: Benny Morris, Irish Times, Feb. 21, 2008
 
What is the problem with eye witness testimony?
Solely using eye witness testimony, in many situations 2nd hand (hearsay), often with political motivations behind the statements only from Arabs, doesn't make a sound case for any argument. Often what is needed are statements from both sides, with physical evidence, such as official government documents, would make a proper basis for an argument.

Using solely eye witness testimonies from people who have motivations against the person/people they are making statements against doesn't hold up in court, so why would it need to be accepted at face value as to absolute truth regarding these events we're talking about here?
 
Arab eyewitnesses? Were they given an oath to swear to tell the truth, so help them Allah. Be serious.

What an outrageous comment.

"An honest Arab? Don't make me laugh."

Nope. I can't even lampoon you comment properly. It is beyond satire.
 
I don't see this statement anywhere. Unless you're making up this satire yourself?

Yes, that was my attempt to exaggerate Marc's comment. As you can see, it doesn't really exaggerate it at all. That was the point(less).
 
Both Pappe and Morris (the latter which admitted so) didn't use the Israeli archives to justify their claims.

So when Morris says that Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin signed expulsion orders, there actually are no such signed orders? Is that your claim?

What do you make of this, from Rabin's memoirs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities … Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. … Allon repeated the question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! … 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring … Psychologically, this was one of the most difficult actions we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 miles to the point where they met up with the legion. (Soldier of Peace, p. 140–141)

Is there no such entry in Rabin's memoirs? Is the entry a forgery? Was Rabin delusional?

From Morris to Pappe is not really a spectrum, its more of a corner.

You clearly don't know their politics -- and it was a political spectrum I referred to while pointing out agreement on historical opinion.
 
What an outrageous comment.

"An honest Arab? Don't make me laugh."

Nope. I can't even lampoon you comment properly. It is beyond satire.

I can lampoon your post, but, why even bother? You miss the point. Merely relying on so-called eyewitnesses, or, eyewitlesses, is folklorical and not historical. It falls short of constituting proper historiography.

You have a wonderful weekend.
 
So when Morris says that Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin signed expulsion orders, there actually are no such signed orders? Is that your claim?
This is what you got from my post? Who is talking about Rabin's orders? Do you generally pull arguments out of thin air?

Re-read from Morris: "no access to the materials in the IDFA [Israel Defense Forces Archive] or Haganah archive and precious little to firsthand military materials deposited elsewhere."

Group this together with Pappe's 'works', which are a few notches below Morris's, and you got a formula for disaster. Or should we continue to make up some more Tantura massacres and just keep retelling these fictional stories until they are accepted as truth?

Is there no such entry in Rabin's memoirs? Is the entry a forgery? Was Rabin delusional?
Thanks for the entertainment. Who is talking about Rabin again?

You clearly don't know their politics -- and it was a political spectrum I referred to while pointing out agreement on historical opinion.
Not so much concerned about their slight political alignment differences, more that they belong to the 'new historian' bloc of shoddy revisionists.
 
This is what you got from my post? Who is talking about Rabin's orders? Do you generally pull arguments out of thin air?

Re-read from Morris: "no access to the materials in the IDFA [Israel Defense Forces Archive] or Haganah archive and precious little to firsthand military materials deposited elsewhere."

Group this together with Pappe's 'works', which are a few notches below Morris's, and you got a formula for disaster. Or should we continue to make up some more Tantura massacres and just keep retelling these fictional stories until they are accepted as truth?


Thanks for the entertainment. Who is talking about Rabin again?


Not so much concerned about their slight political alignment differences, more that they belong to the 'new historian' bloc of shoddy revisionists.
Just to be clear, what is it that you want to vanish?
The displacement of non jews? It didn't happen?
 
What territory, specifically, "west of the Jordan"
specifically all land west of the Jordon you regard as Jewish land.
What should happen to non Jews living on this land.

I'm quite happy to continue into summer if you like, quite happy to define each word in the question and all the punctuation too if you like.
Sit back and relax, eventually you will either have to tell us what you think should happen to them or admit you don't want to answer.....Then we can only go on the answers you have provided elsewhere. Your views about what should happen with Non-jews west of the jordon is well documented around various locations on the WWW, why are you so scared of revealing it here? Because its another Nakba?
 
specifically all land west of the Jordon you regard as Jewish land.
What should happen to non Jews living on this land.

Aren't there quite a few "non Jew" countries? Around how many Arab countries are there?

I'm quite happy to continue into summer if you like, quite happy to define each word in the question and all the punctuation too if you like.

Judging by how you enter back into the Federal Witness Protection Program each time I ask you basic, elementary question related to the Middle East, I rather think not.

Then we can only go on the answers you have provided elsewhere. Your views about what should happen with Non-jews west of the jordon is well documented around various locations on the WWW, why are you so scared of revealing it here? Because its another Nakba?

Happy delusions, man. When can we expect you to resurface from seclusion with responses to my most recent questions? Maybe, around Christmas?
 
Aren't there quite a few "non Jew" countries? Around how many Arab countries are there?
specifically land west of the Jordan that you regard as Jewish land. Should Non-jews living on this land be allowed to stay?

simple question. The reason that I am asking it is that this thread is about a Nakba that you deny happened, yet your plans for the non-jewish residents of "jewish land" is essentially the same thing over again. To dispel this misconception you would need to type 3 words...something along the lines of "they can stay" would do. Can you do that?
 
specifically land west of the Jordan that you regard as Jewish land. Should Non-jews living on this land be allowed to stay?

Considering "specifically land EAST of the Jordan" is Muslim, should "non-Jews" be allowed to stay?

simple question. The reason that I am asking it is that this thread is about a Nakba that you deny happened...

I forced you to deny the nakba, too. Sorry.

yet your plans for the non-jewish residents of "jewish land" is essentially the same thing over again. To dispel this misconception you would need to type 3 words...something along the lines of "they can stay" would do. Can you do that?

They can stay...in 55 Muslim countries already establshed. How convenient, right?
 
Just what caused the displacement of "non-Jews"? Any idea?
Look Marc39 I don't really care about the first Nakba. You deny it and no amount of questioning is going to change that. What I want to move on to is The 2nd Nakba. The one you think should happen in the future. The 2nd Nakba will be the removal of non-Jews from land west of the Jordan. Is this not your view?
 

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