9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[headscratcher4]

Clearly, the US, British, French and of course the Russians had so brain-washed them that not one was willing to speak up in an open court...when you consider that Stalin couldn't even pull that off in the show trials (prisoners who tried to recant in open court who were hauled back for a little more intensive interogation before confessing to capitalist/facist spying) it is pretty impressive. Go Allies!

 

[Oliver]

didnt the Nazis report that Lithuania was "Judenrein"? did they accomplish this by sending der Juden to Disneyland?

its one thing to debate the exact number of Jewish Holocaust deaths. it is between 4.5 million and 7 million.

but to say that the Holocaust didn't happen or that only 200,000 died..is the height of absurdity.

I know that "der, die, das" is quite complicated for English people to learn, but whenever it is more than one thing/person, it's "die". So one person is "der Mann", "die Frau", "das Kind", but if it's more than one person, it's "die Männer", "die Frauen", "die Kinder" - or in your case, "die Juden".

Concerning the topic itself, I'm seriously wondering what they teach in Dutch schools nowadays concerning the period of Nazi-Germany/WW2, especially concering local events at the time:

Source: Wikipedia - History of the Jews in the Netherlands

In 1939 there were some 140,000 Dutch Jews living in the Netherlands, among them some 25,000 German-Jewish refugees who had fled Germany in the 1930s (other sources claim that some 34,000 Jewish refugees entered the Netherlands between 1933 and 1940, mostly from Germany and Austria [3]). *snip*

In 1945 only about 35,000 of them were still alive. The exact number of "full Jews" who survived the Holocaust is estimated to be 34,379 (of whom 8,500 were part of a mixed marriage and thus spared from deportation and possible death in the Nazi concentration camps)

 

[ddt]

Concerning the topic itself, I'm seriously wondering what they teach in Dutch schools nowadays concerning the period of Nazi-Germany/WW2, especially concering local events at the time:

Those are the numbers I remember having learnt. Don't blame the school system for a single holocaust denier; they, unfortunately, exist everywhere - and fortunately, in (very) small numbers.

To answer the OP: you want to know what happened to, e.g., those 105,000 Dutch Jews? Here are their stories. Come back when you've read all of them.

 

[laca]

I feel that I must correct you here. The plural of "museum" is "musea".

Museums is also correct, at least according to the wiktionary. Also, I've never heard it being used as "musea".

 

[Oliver]

Those are the numbers I remember having learnt. Don't blame the school system for a single holocaust denier; they, unfortunately, exist everywhere - and fortunately, in (very) small numbers.

To answer the OP: you want to know what happened to, e.g., those 105,000 Dutch Jews? Here are their stories. Come back when you've read all of them.

You're right, I should've asked which school he visited to miss those history lessons in light of the Netherlands at the time being unintentionally involved in the Holocaust.

 

[Stacko]

You're right, I should've asked which school he visited to miss those history lessons in light of the Netherlands at the time being unintentionally involved in the Holocaust.

Maybe this guy was his teacher.

 

[Corsair 115]

Balloney. It took the combined effort of Russians, British and Americans to bring them down, outnumbering 1:7. So if the Germans were inefficient than the Allies must have been real incompetents.

It's well established that Germany wasted a huge amount of resources on militarily useless projects. The V-1 and V-2 weapons programs are another two examples.

 

[Oliver]

It's well established that Germany wasted a huge amount of resources on militarily useless projects. The V-1 and V-2 weapons programs are another two examples.

Oh come on, we landed on the Moon thanks to V1 and V2.

 

[headscratcher4]

"Balloney. It took the combined effort of Russians, British and Americans to bring them down, outnumbering 1:7. So if the Germans were inefficient than the Allies must have been real incompetents. "

Balloney. It was really more a matter of time...after the failure of the Russian campaign in 1940, it would have been very difficult for Germany to win. The interjection of the Brits and the US into the war over the next couple of years just sped up the process. But, in any event, it was pretty well over after Stalingrad in 42...and the Brits and Americans hadn't even landed in Europe.

Hitler was a terrible general...his politics and military incompetence pretty well seald his fate early on. He wasted resources and men. Nazi policy made every occupation just that rather than a liberation (which the Russians feared). He had to hold land and that required resources that he couldn't throw at his oponents. What equipment and training advantages Hitler took to war he pissed away...and even Speer (who did a relatively amazing job of marshalling resources...often at gun-point leading to 100s of thousands of slave-labor deaths) couldn't figure out how to produce enough to save the situation (little less where the recruits were going to come from to sustain the war.

 

[ddt]

Maybe this guy was his teacher.

Or this guy. Before entering politics, he was a high school civics teacher.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Something tells me 9/11 investigator owns an IBM

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

[nitpick]
That would be impressive if he did. IBM dropped out of the PC market years ago to focus on high end mainframes.
[/nitpick]

 

[dudalb]

It's well established that Germany wasted a huge amount of resources on militarily useless projects. The V-1 and V-2 weapons programs are another two examples.

They were incredible..for the time, technical acheivments...but not worth anywhere near the resources they consumed.
Hitler was obssesed with the idea he could ,by bombing the UK, break the Allied will to fight. It failed in 1940, when Germany had the edge in the air, and there was simply no chance in hell of it working in 1944.
What might might have been an even more damaging diversion was Hitlers insistence that the emphasis in Germany's Jet production be put on bombers instead of fighters. That delayed the ME262 by nearly a year.

 

[9/11-investigator]

bump

 

[9/11-investigator]

-Goebbels' diary

Mikister throws in the following snippet of text:

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

He does this without giving a link and it is clear why he does this, namely to be able to quote out of context:

http://www.codoh.info/trials/tristagch2.html

Regarding the feb 14 quote here is another one, a few weeks later:

March 7, 1942: The Jewish question must be solved within a pan-European frame. There are 11,000,O00Jews still in Europe. To begin with, they will have to be concentrated in the East; possibly an island, such as Madagascar, can be assigned to them after the war. In any case there can be no peace in Europe until every Jew has been eliminated from the continent.

There is not a hint of a genocide, he just wanted to get rid of them, since Germany did not want to go down the path of Russia where the Jews had introduced this horrible bolshevism, a fact even acknowledged by Churchill (Sunday Herald article from the twenties).

Regarding the quote from march 27, 1942, Mikister leaves something out on purpose. The context is not 'the final solution' (meaning deporting the Jews to the east) but Lublin:

March 27, 1942: . . . Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the Government General are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 percent can be used for forced labor.

First of all: the Germans acted ruthless in the East. It was here that the worst atrocities were committed and not in the camps. Revisionists generally come up with a number of 1 million Jews in total who died durng WW2 from unnatural causes and most of them as a result of the Einsatzgruppen. It should be said though that many Baltics and Ukrainians were all too willing to give the Germans a hand, keen as they were to take revenge for the massive atrocities that had been committed against them by the Bolsheviks during the years before the 'German liberation'. I have no problem with describing the German behavior as criminal. What is never taken into account though was the excessive criminality of their opponents. And here the Jews were no longer victims but perpetrators. But that's a topic about we will not hear very much from Spielberg, Lanzmann or Lipstadt.

 

[Simon39759]

They were incredible..for the time, technical acheivments...but not worth anywhere near the resources they consumed.
Hitler was obssesed with the idea he could ,by bombing the UK, break the Allied will to fight. It failed in 1940, when Germany had the edge in the air, and there was simply no chance in hell of it working in 1944.
What might might have been an even more damaging diversion was Hitlers insistence that the emphasis in Germany's Jet production be put on bombers instead of fighters. That delayed the ME262 by nearly a year.

The way I see it, Hitler was a totally incompetent strategist but he was unfortunately served by some very impressive generals and engineers (most of which were not member of the Nazi party, or only so out of convenience).

The BF109 was a great machine and so were the German tanks. Without their ability to cross the Ardennes, a feat inconceivable at the time, the battle of France would have been much more costly for Germany.


It's only when the first defeats started to arrive, due mostly to Hitler's poor strategy in ordering the invasion of the Soviet Union, that his paranoid nature lead him to get more and more involved in the strategic decisions, wrenching the commands from his more capable generals, which only hastened his fall.

 

[Simon39759]

Mikister throws in the following snippet of text:

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.
March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.
He does this without giving a link and it is clear why he does this, namely to be able to quote out of context:
http://www.codoh.info/trials/tristagch2.html
Regarding the feb 14 quote here is another one, a few weeks later:
March 7, 1942: The Jewish question must be solved within a pan-European frame. There are 11,000,O00Jews still in Europe. To begin with, they will have to be concentrated in the East; possibly an island, such as Madagascar, can be assigned to them after the war. In any case there can be no peace in Europe until every Jew has been eliminated from the continent.
There is not a hint of a genocide, he just wanted to get rid of them, since Germany did not want to go down the path of Russia where the Jews had introduced this horrible bolshevism, a fact even acknowledged by Churchill (Sunday Herald article from the twenties).
Regarding the quote from march 27, 1942, Mikister leaves something out on purpose. The context is not 'the final solution' (meaning deporting the Jews to the east) but Lublin:
March 27, 1942: . . . Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the Government General are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 percent can be used for forced labor.
First of all: the Germans acted ruthless in the East. It was here that the worst atrocities were committed and not in the camps. Revisionists generally come up with a number of 1 million Jews in total who died durng WW2 from unnatural causes and most of them as a result of the Einsatzgruppen. It should be said though that many Baltics and Ukrainians were all too willing to give the Germans a hand, keen as they were to take revenge for the massive atrocities that had been committed against them by the Bolsheviks during the years before the 'German liberation'. I have no problem with describing the German behavior as criminal. What is never taken into account though was the excessive criminality of their opponents. And here the Jews were no longer victims but perpetrators. But that's a topic about we will not hear very much from Spielberg, Lanzmann or Lipstadt.

Frack, you are sickening.

How many Jews did you think served it the Red Army?

And how would your little story account for the genocide in the West? Far outside of the Russian controlled territories?

 

[9/11-investigator]

[qimg]http://sherryx.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/holocaust00.jpg[/qimg]

Doesnt matter if it was 1 million or 6 million or 12 million.
it doesnt matter if they was gassed or shot.
It doesnt matter if they were jews or roma , they are Human beeings.

It does make a difference whether 1 or 12 million persons died. And it certainly should be considered how they died.

The Dictator shows a gruesome picture, probably originating from Belsen, but without comment. So what does this picture show? The Dictator gives no comment but he wants to suggest that these people (he does not identify them) died in 'the holocaust'.

Here is a documentary about Belsen made by the Allies shortly after they librated the camps. Or rather made by horror specialist Alfred Hitchcock.

These pictures admittedly show horrible scenes. But what happened? How did these people die? By gas? By shooting? No, by typhus. If you watch the film attentively you see many healthy people walking around and laughing. They are not underfed. The commentator talks about thousands of deaths. That is probably true considering the size pile of bodies. But these were the last weeks of the war. Everything had collapsed including the supply of fuel to cremate the bodies. And then the only thing that remains is to pile up the bodies. There is not a hint that these people were murdered in cold blood. You could even reason that these people were indirectly and unintentionally killed by the actions of the Allies with their bombing campagnes (often against civilian targets).

Another point is that these dead people are not Jews but Poles and Russians. The Jews generally followed the Germans westwards voluntarily (famous example professional swindler Elie Wiesel) to avoid ending up in Soviet territory. Does somebody want to claim that the Germans had an extermination program for these people as well?

Here is a British army link that supports these claims:
http://www.qaranc.co.uk/belsen_concentration_camp.php

 

[FineWine]

It does make a difference whether 1 or 12 million persons died. And it certainly should be considered how they died.

The Dictator shows a gruesome picture, probably originating from Belsen, but without comment. So what does this picture show? The Dictator gives no comment but he wants to suggest that these people (he does not identify them) died in 'the holocaust'.

Here is a documentary about Belsen made by the Allies shortly after they librated the camps. Or rather made by horror specialist Alfred Hitchcock.

These pictures admittedly show horrible scenes. But what happened? How did these people die? By gas? By shooting? No, by typhus. If you watch the film attentively you see many healthy people walking around and laughing. They are not underfed. The commentator talks about thousands of deaths. That is probably true considering the size pile of bodies. But these were the last weeks of the war. Everything had collapsed including the supply of fuel to cremate the bodies. And then the only thing that remains is to pile up the bodies. There is not a hint that these people were murdered in cold blood. You could even reason that these people were indirectly and unintentionally killed by the actions of the Allies with their bombing campagnes (often against civilian targets).

Another point is that these dead people are not Jews but Poles and Russians. The Jews generally followed the Germans westwards voluntarily (famous example professional swindler Elie Wiesel) to avoid ending up in Soviet territory. Does somebody want to claim that the Germans had an extermination program for these people as well?

Here is a British army link that supports these claims:
http://www.qaranc.co.uk/belsen_concentration_camp.php

The lies you peddle are thoroughly debunked rubbish. See Michael Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things for a comprehensive examination of Holocaust-deniers and their methods.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Frack, you are sickening.

The usual smearmongering of the intellectual impotent.

How many Jews did you think served it the Red Army?

Irrelevant. It's about the leadership, the people who killed the tsar, the ideologues. Read Churchill about it. Or this honest Jewish fellow Sever plocker: "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish". And that happened before Hitler.

And how would your little story account for the genocide in the West? Far outside of the Russian controlled territories?

What genocide are you talking about? Dresden?

 

[9/11-investigator]

The lies you peddle are thoroughly debunked rubbish. See Michael Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things for a comprehensive examination of Holocaust-deniers and their methods.

Ah yes that not unsympathetic libertarian Shermer who was demolished to the core in this debate about the holocaust with Mark Weber of the IHR.

More interesting than that sceptic book you refer to and more on topic is this revisionist classic by the American Arthur Butz:

http://vho.org/dl/ENG/Hoax.pdf

Read and know.