Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Lothian]

Well actually Moses punished the act of a man laying with another man. It says nothing about Moses punishing the desire or thought of being with a man.

Doc I have no problem rewording the question and am happy to do so until you answer the question.

You said

Moses, a man who had men killed for lying with other men.

Moses, a man who had men killed for lying with other men.

My bible says Moses wrote Leviticus:

Leviticus 20:13 (King James Version)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

So when the bible says that men lying with other men are to be punished by death that comes from Moses.

When Moses quotes God's law in the bible is he accurately reporting God's law?

If he is does it still stand?

If not when did God change his mind?

 

[DOC]

Doc I have no problem rewording the question and am happy to do so until you answer the question.

You said




So when the bible says that men lying with other men are to be punished by death that comes from Moses.

When Moses quotes God's law in the bible is he accurately reporting God's law?

If he is does it still stand?

If not when did God change his mind?

Anything in the New Testament overides anything in the Old Testament. That's why the Old Testament is called Old and the New Testament is called New. Christ never would have needed to come if Moses had said everything. Christ has the final say not Moses.

And I know of nowhere where it says Moses law about executing men laying with other men came directly from God. Just like I know of nowhere Moses law allowing for divorce came directly from God. On the other hand the 10 commandments did come from God.

 

[DOC]

Do you have any evidence that the Israelites were ever slaves in Egypt, let alone for hundreds of years?

So are you saying the Jews believe their history of being slaves (and the many times it was mentioned in the bible) was all made up. If you are going to make something up -- you portray yourselves as a great nation, not slaves or hungry arguing people wandering in the desert.

Are you saying this is all made up:

From the article: Bible history timeline by George Konig and Ray Konig

God promises Abraham many descendants
Abraham lived around 2100 BC in what is now Iraq. God told him to move to Canaan, which later became Israel. Unlike many people, Abraham believed in the one true God. God rewarded Abraham's faith, making him the father of a great nation (Israel), and an ancestor to the Messiah (Jesus Christ).

2000 BC (about 4000 years ago)
Jacob (Israel) is born
Jacob, the son of Isaac, who was the son of Abraham, is born in Canaan. Jacob's name is changed to Israel. (Canaan is later renamed Israel, after Jacob). He has 12 sons, for whom the 12 Tribes of Israel are named.

1900 BC (about 3900 years ago)
Joseph sold into slavery
Joseph, one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel), is sold into slavery by his brothers, who are jealous of him. Joseph ends up in Egypt, where he rises to power as a trusted assistant of a pharaoh. His father and his brothers later leave Canaan, because of a famine, and move to Egypt. They are later saved from harm by Joseph.

1446 BC (about 3400 years ago)
Exodus begins
The Hebrews, or Israelites (descendants of Jacob), are enslaved for 400 years in Egypt until Moses leads them out of Egypt. They wander the desert for 40 years. Moses then brings them to the border of Canaan, the land that God had previously promised to their forefather Abraham.

1406 BC (about 3400 years ago)
Israel begins establishing itself as a sovereign country
After Moses dies, Joshua leads the Israelites into Canaan and begins conquering the land, establishing a sovereign country of Israel for the first time in history.

http://www.konig.org/timeline.htm

 

[zooterkin]

So are you saying the Jews believe their history of being slaves (and the many times it was mentioned in the bible) was all made up.

I don't think that says what you meant to.

And I'm asking if you have any evidence, though I do realise that is a concept which seems to confuse you.

Are you saying this is all made up:

From the article: Bible history timeline by George Konig and Ray Konig

God promises Abraham many descendants

Well, frankly, yes. Given the first one fails, what's the point in continuing?

 

[DOC]

I don't think that says what you meant to.

And I'm asking if you have any evidence, though I do realise that is a concept which seems to confuse you.

Yes, Moses, the person that the book "The 100: a Ranking of the 100 Most Influential people in History" ranked as the 16th most influential person ever to live (ahead of Washington and Jefferson), wrote they were slaves in Egypt. Are you saying Hebrew/Jewish history is false.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, Moses, the person that the book "The 100: a Ranking of the 100 Most Influential people in History" ranked as the 16th most influential person ever to live (ahead of Washington and Jefferson), wrote they were slaves in Egypt. Are you saying Hebrew/Jewish history is false.

I see you're still struggling.

Do you have any evidence that there was such a person as Moses, outside of the text of the bible? Do you have any evidence that the Egyptians, who kept records, ever enslaved the Israelites, and that they were freed by Moses? Do you have any evidence that it was Moses who wrote the account? Do you believe that the position on that list of 100 has any meaning at all?

 

[amb]

In being an authority on the bible, you seem to have overlooked one prerequisite: reading it

Did God tell Moses to kill homosexuals?

• Probably not, bearing in mind that god is a mythological character borne of the twisted fantasies of deluded fools

Was Moses a homophobe?

• Yes.

There is little evidence that Moses ever existed. The whole Exodus is a trumped up migration of one or a group of tribes from one place to another.
There's nothing at all in the Egyptian records of a mass of people all leaving at once as described in the bable.

 

[Lothian]

Anything in the New Testament overides anything in the Old Testament. That's why the Old Testament is called Old and the New Testament is called New. Christ never would have needed to come if Moses had said everything. Christ has the final say not Moses.

You say that the new testament rules supersede the old testament rules yet Mathew reports Jesus saying For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven(5:18, 5:19).

Luke said similar (16:17).

Christ’s final say is to follow the laws of Moses.

And I know of nowhere where it says Moses law about executing men laying with other men came directly from God. Just like I know of nowhere Moses law allowing for divorce came directly from God. On the other hand the 10 commandments did come from God.

Perhaps you should read the text you quote. Leviticus 20 starts

20:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

before getting to

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

That is as clear an instruction from God as you can get.

Not only does God tell Moses to kill men who lie together but Jesus, who I understand is God, reiterates the laws passed to Moses stand as evidenced by Mathew and Luke.

So why do you deny God and Jesus's law?

 

[DOC]

There is little evidence that Moses ever existed.

The Jewish/Roman Historian Josephus, and probably the greatest Jewish prophet Isaiah would disagree with you.

 

[six7s]

There is little evidence that Moses ever existed.

The Jewish/Roman Historian Josephus, and probably the greatest Jewish prophet Isaiah would disagree with you.

You have had it explained - quite simply and coherently - why your friend Josephus is a less than credible 'witness' for Christ who allegedly lived only a few decades before...

So...

It is bizarre and, frankly, ridiculous for you to think believe that Josephus can vouch for Moses

 

[DOC]

Do you have any evidence that there was such a person as Moses, outside of the text of the bible? Do you have any evidence that the Egyptians, who kept records, ever enslaved the Israelites, and that they were freed by Moses? Do you have any evidence that it was Moses who wrote the account? Do you believe that the position on that list of 100 has any meaning at all?

The Jewish/Roman historian Jospephus had no problem believing Moses existed.

And here is some additional evidence of the Israelites being in Egypt around the time the bible said they were there:

Digging out the truth of Exodus
By Helen Fields
Posted 10/12/03

Egyptologist Manfred Bietak was reading a 60-year-old report of a dig near Luxor in Egypt when a surprising find caught his eye. Near a mortuary temple from the 12th century B.C., archaeologists had uncovered a grid of shallow trenches, which they guessed was the base of a workers' hut. Bietak, head of the Institute of Egyptology at Vienna University, recognized the floor plan as that of the four-room houses used by almost all Israelites from the 12th to the sixth century B.C.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/031020/20exodus.htm

 

[DOC]

It is bizarre and, frankly, ridiculous for you to think believe that Josephus can vouch for Moses

Then why did he write about him being in Egypt.

 

[joobz]

And maybe the above is why God chose the Jewish nation to give us Christ. A nation that were slaves for hundreds of years,...

So, you agree that God condones slavery?

 

[joobz]

Anything in the New Testament overides anything in the Old Testament. That's why the Old Testament is called Old and the New Testament is called New. Christ never would have needed to come if Moses had said everything. Christ has the final say not Moses.

The final say that did not include any claims regarding the morality of slavery. Nor did Jesus claim anything regarding homosexuality.

So DOC, again, which is it?

Was Jesus a pro-slavery homophobe or was he an anti-slavery progay rights liberal?

 

[Lothian]

The Jewish/Roman historian Jospephus had no problem believing Moses existed.

Then why did he write about him being in Egypt.

If you read the preface to the Antiquities of the Jews Josephus wrote “Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures”

He is simply repeating the Moses story which in no way verifies it.

 

[wollery]

Then why did he write about him being in Egypt.

Because he was Jewish and believed it to be true.

The fact that he was writing some 1000 years after the supposed events happened, and had absolutely no evidence other than the Torah probably won't make any difference to you, but I thought I'd point it out anyway.

 

[amb]

Then why did he write about him being in Egypt.

Josephus wrote around 90ad. He was writing hearsay and legends.
You want to prove Moses existed, you look in alternative places, like Egyptian records which are silent on this most revered of Hebrew heroes.

 

[Hokulele]

DOC, have you ever read Max Dimont's Jews, God, and History? It isn't perfect, but it would give you a much better perspective on who or what Moses might have been and done.

And no, the entire Jewish nation was not held as slaves in Egypt, and didn't spend 40 years wandering (not wondering) the desert.

 

[joobz]

And no, the entire Jewish nation was not held as slaves in Egypt, and didn't spend 40 years wandering (not wondering) the desert.

But but but but....
The bible says they did, so it must be true!!!
And becuase it's true that means the bible is true. We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true......

 

[Mojo]

But but but but....
The bible says they did, so it must be true!!!
And becuase it's true that means the bible is true. We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true.We also know that the bible says these things happened, so those things much be true. And since those things are true we know that the bible is true......

Would you like a nice cup of tea?