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Amway TV ad

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Legal != Legitimate

The business is (for now) legal. It's certainly not a legitimate business in terms of it being a good opportunity.
 
Once again, the whole "but it is legal!" issue is completely besides the point.

Sure, Amway is legal. But so is taking all your money and throwing it out the window. 99.99% (at least) of all things that are legal to do are still stupid things nobody should do. "It is legal" is about a much a recommendation as "there's a word for it in the dictionary".

Tell me how much money one can expect to earn in Amway, then you're talking.

But you won't, since you know very well only the tiny minority at the top of the Amway (legal) pyramid makes any money. Everybody else -- yourself included -- loses money.

When you take the total profit you made from Amway, and divide it by the total number of hours you spent "building the buisness", how much were your hourly wages?

Did you break $1 an hour? Bet you didn't.
 
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Tell me how much money one can expect to earn in Amway, then you're talking.

That entirely depends on how hard you are willing to work and learn, and for how long. You can work out precisely how much you can expect to earn if you work out how much volume you willing to work to create.

But you won't, since you know very well only the tiny minority at the top of the Amway (legal) pyramid makes any money. Everybody else -- yourself included -- loses money.

Why do you constantly feel the need to make things up? I do not lose money, I've said that before. Lying about stuff discredits you, not Amway. Furthermore, even a cursory understanding of the business model shows there is no "top" to Amway. Your income is entirely based on the volume you create, not position.

When you take the total profit you made from Amway, and divide it by the total number of hours you spent "building the buisness", how much were your hourly wages?

ROFLMAO!!! Wow, have you never owned a business of any variety or what. We get paid for results, not for turning up to work.

Even then, as I've already said - I don't know, I'm still getting paid, and profiting, for the work I've done in the past. There are people who've been dead for decades whose estates are still earning a royalty-like income for the ongoing sales volume they helped create. What's their hourly rate?

Did you break $1 an hour? Bet you didn't.

Perhaps a mathematician can tell us $(past earnings)+$(unknown future earnings)/hours worked=?

Even ignoring future earnings, you lose. Not that that will worry you, you'll just keep on making stuff up.
 
I see a lot of claims with zero evidence. If you are claiming to be making more than $1 an hour then prove it.
 
I see a lot of claims with zero evidence. If you are claiming to be making more than $1 an hour then prove it.

This must somehow be related to the God question. It's not possible to prove God exists, or that he doesn't. Same with Amway profits, I guess. Some people believe in the profits, others don't. No proof either way exists.
 
This must somehow be related to the God question. It's not possible to prove God exists, or that he doesn't. Same with Amway profits, I guess. Some people believe in the profits, others don't. No proof either way exists.

It's not impossible to prove Amway profits, it is however likely impossible to provide any material to some anti-amway zealots that would prove it to their liking. Audited account statements would undoubtedly be dismissed as forgeries - indeed I've had that claim with regards Amway itself, with people telling me the sales figures are faked, and that includes the audited accounts of Amway's public affiliates.
 
It's not impossible to prove Amway profits, it is however likely impossible to provide any material to some anti-amway zealots that would prove it to their liking. Audited account statements would undoubtedly be dismissed as forgeries - indeed I've had that claim with regards Amway itself, with people telling me the sales figures are faked, and that includes the audited accounts of Amway's public affiliates.

Really depends on from whom. It's well-known that the people at the top do in fact make profits. What I know is that my friend who got into it declared bankruptcy a few years later and ended up getting a real job driving a bread-delivery truck.

He was told by some slick type that Denver was an opening market and that he could build his network down there. So he picked up and moved after dropping out of college, and everything went downhill from there.

I haven't heard from him in a long time, but hopefully he's back on track after wasting several years and a decent credit rating in the Amway scam.
 
It's not impossible to prove Amway profits, it is however likely impossible to provide any material to some anti-amway zealots that would prove it to their liking. Audited account statements would undoubtedly be dismissed as forgeries - indeed I've had that claim with regards Amway itself, with people telling me the sales figures are faked, and that includes the audited accounts of Amway's public affiliates.

Well you could at least give us unverifiable information.

How many years have you been working it? What level of income did you achieve? How is that business doing now? that kind of stuff.

A rough estimate of your profit per hour would be nice too.

Personally I think you are (and should be) embarrassed to talk about this because it doesn't make the business look good.

Given the overall success ratio of Amway the entire thing looks like a wealth transfer scheme from those at the bottom of the pyramid to those at the top.
 
Really depends on from whom. It's well-known that the people at the top do in fact make profits. What I know is that my friend who got into it declared bankruptcy a few years later and ended up getting a real job driving a bread-delivery truck.

Well, it's NewtonTrino who seems to be claiming nobody is making any money with Amway. Nobody is claiming that nobody loses money with Amway. It's like anything else, don't control your income and expenses and you can get in to trouble.

He was told by some slick type that Denver was an opening market and that he could build his network down there. So he picked up and moved after dropping out of college, and everything went downhill from there.

That's just bizarre on so many levels it's crazy. For a start, Amway has been throughout the US since it began in 1959 utilising existing Nutrilite networks. Given that, I'd suggest things were going downhill before he left!

I haven't heard from him in a long time, but hopefully he's back on track after wasting several years and a decent credit rating in the Amway scam.

How is this any evidence at all of a scam? He makes, according to you, a decision based on information that Amway would happily confirm was false a simple phone call or email would do, or a look at a website anytime in the last 15 years. He makes a decision, contrary to pretty much any advice I've ever heard from any successful Amway IBO, to quit college and move towns, and this is Amway's fault?

There might be a slight case for apportioning some blame to whoever was supposedly giving him this advice, but ultimately he was the one that made these decisions. Even if true, nothing you've said says anything at all about the Amway business other than it's possible to do stupid things and lose money - just like any other business.
 
Just to be clear I'm not claiming that nobody makes money. What I am claiming is that:
a) It's incredibly hard to build a decent sized business to the point where doing almost anything else, including working at McDonalds, would be a better career move.
b) you will make less money that you think even at levels advertised as being profitable (Emerald for example)
c) when you are making money most of it will be from tools.

I seriously seriously doubt that Icerat makes decent profit from his Amway business on an hourly basis. I would love a detailed analysis that proves me wrong.
 
How many years have you been working it? What level of income did you achieve? How is that business doing now? that kind of stuff.

I built a business that generated 4 figure monthly incomes in less than "years", about 18 months if I recall. When I stopped building it, due to major crises in another company I owned, I had not yet developed leadership in the organisation and under older circumstances it would be predicted it would disappear completely. The internet has changed that somewhat, with people being able to order products themselves and have them delivered home. I don't track what income it brings in to my former wife now (that would require analysing per leg volume and other issues), but it does varies quite a deal from month to month depending on what people buy. Some months there's been thousands of dollars in turnover, other months a few hundred.

A rough estimate of your profit per hour would be nice too.

This is a completely senseless question. There is no such thing as "profit per hour" when you developing this type of business.

Personally I think you are (and should be) embarrassed to talk about this because it doesn't make the business look good.

No, it's because it's a meaningless question. What's Bill Gates "profit per hour" for the work he has done at Microsoft? It's an unanswerable question. He doesn't work there anymore, yet he still makes money for it.

You're either extremely naive and unknowledgeable about anything outside the world of trading hours for dollars, or you're deliberating asking this question, knowing it's unanswerable, in the hope it makes Amway look bad.

Given the overall success ratio of Amway the entire thing looks like a wealth transfer scheme from those at the bottom of the pyramid to those at the top.

Which just shows how ignorant you are of the Amway model. It's (a) not even pyramid shaped and (b) if you look at any individual chain of product or money flow, they percentage earned is as much as 20 times higher in the final, "lower" steps than the "higher" steps.
 
Profit per hour up to this point is a completely answerable question. Just because you pretend it's not doesn't mean you can't work it out. Also if you want to you can try to estimate future earning, but certainly the profit per hour is calculatable without taking that into account. Future earning would have to be calculated at a discount anywhere because they aren't guaranteed.

Bottom line it's HOURS WORKED / PROFIT FOR THE TIME PERIOD IN QUESTION.

So can you or can you not get the numbers to do this? Or does it look REALLY REALLY bad?
 
a) It's incredibly hard to build a decent sized business to the point where doing almost anything else, including working at McDonalds, would be a better career move.

Your turn for proof.

b) you will make less money that you think even at levels advertised as being profitable (Emerald for example)

Scheibler claimed that, but then he also claimed to be surprised how small his first "depth bonus" was, which by definition is small the first time you recieve it. He was either lying or clueless.

It's possible to build a qualifying Amway business and have only a few hundred dollars a month in net income. It's also possible to have an Emerald business and make over a million bucks a year.

None of it should be a "surprise" since it's possible to calculate very closely what your income will be based on your volume. Expenses will vary from person to person.

c) when you are making money most of it will be from tools.

Unless you start a tool company selling your wares and expertise to a larger market than your Amway business, this is extremely unlikely. Even in the latter case, it's rare.

I seriously seriously doubt that Icerat makes decent profit from his Amway business on an hourly basis. I would love a detailed analysis that proves me wrong.

Gotta love the way you put that "hourly basis" in there! We don't get paid by the hour, we get compensated based on results. Do you not understand this, or are you deliberately obfuscating?

You clearly think there's something wrong with performance based compensation, I just as clearly don't.
 
Bottom line it's HOURS WORKED / PROFIT FOR THE TIME PERIOD IN QUESTION.

Bottom line is, that's an idiotic question.

For the past year or so I've been putting in 70hrs a week into another business. I've also put in a lot of money.

So far I've earned ZERO income from it, because we've not yet launched to the public.

In previous businesses I did similar things, and at some stage started paying myself an income. Did I have a profit per hour? No, of course not, because I owned the company. It's not until I sold the company that I could even guestimate anything remotely approaching an "hourly rate", but even then it's meaningless, because much of that money - and knowledge and experience - has then been invested in further ventures, so I continue to earn (or lose!) based on the work I did earlier.

Asking for hourly profitability is just a plain stupid question in the context of building a business. It will always be a plain stupid question no matter how many times you ask it.
 
a) proof - Amways own numbers on IBO profitability. The vast majority of active IBO's make squat.

b) Then find me some Emeralds who are willing to show where there income is from. Good luck, they hide it just like everyone else.


I have no problem with performance based compensation. However, you can STILL ANALYZE THE COMPENSATION TO SEE IF IT WAS WORTH THE TIME INVESTED. Profit per hour is a very reasonably way to do this, especially when talking about a business with supposedly low upfront costs but a large time investment.

Bottom line, the money you make at McDonalds isn't a great opportunity either, but its still better than scamway.
 
a) proof - Amways own numbers on IBO profitability. The vast majority of active IBO's make squat.

The vast majority of active IBO's do squat and don't expect to make any money. Why is it that anti-Amway obsessives like you almost never mention that?

b) Then find me some Emeralds who are willing to show where there income is from. Good luck, they hide it just like everyone else.

Go to an open meeting and ask one.

Of course, you already know (since you cite the page above) that at least one Emerald in 2005 earned $688,869 from just one Amway bonus!

Would you have us believe his expenses come anywhere near that?

I have no problem with performance based compensation. However, you can STILL ANALYZE THE COMPENSATION TO SEE IF IT WAS WORTH THE TIME INVESTED. Profit per hour is a very reasonably way to do this, especially when talking about a business with supposedly low upfront costs but a large time investment.

I've built and sold a number of different companies. No purchaser has ever once asked me for "profit per hour".

Bottom line, the money you make at McDonalds isn't a great opportunity either, but its still better than scamway.

Bottom line is, if you go work at McDonald's, you'll absolutely make more money that someone who joins Amway to shop, or sits on their sofa and does nothing. You think that makes Amway a scam, I don't.

If the average McDonald's worker worked as much as the average Amway IBO, they'd earn about the same - zero. They'd be fired the first day on the job.
 
Bottom line is, that's an idiotic question.

For the past year or so I've been putting in 70hrs a week into another business. I've also put in a lot of money.

So far I've earned ZERO income from it, because we've not yet launched to the public.

In previous businesses I did similar things, and at some stage started paying myself an income. Did I have a profit per hour? No, of course not, because I owned the company. It's not until I sold the company that I could even guestimate anything remotely approaching an "hourly rate", but even then it's meaningless, because much of that money - and knowledge and experience - has then been invested in further ventures, so I continue to earn (or lose!) based on the work I did earlier.

Asking for hourly profitability is just a plain stupid question in the context of building a business. It will always be a plain stupid question no matter how many times you ask it.

It's not a stupid question in the context of an Amway business. By it's very nature of being a mom and pop kind of setup where you are mostly investing your time.

Actually it's not a stupid question to ask about any financial transaction that takes time to accomplish. Time is money and a quick $$/Hour can give you an idea if something is worth doing or not.

As for more complicated situations involving investment and building companies over time they are generally even more analyzed than this. For example at my company we have to establish a current company valuation for various reasons (pricing options for example). I could easily figure out my profit per hour up to this point by calculating my equity stake, pay etc up to this point.

I would love to see a solid financial analysis of the long term REAL income that is passive in Amway. My guess is that future dollars would have to be dramatically discounted anyway given how quickly these networks seem to disappear when people quit working. Unfortunately no solid numbers are really available because they like to hide as much as possible due to the craptastic profits.
 
It's not a stupid question in the context of an Amway business. By it's very nature of being a mom and pop kind of setup where you are mostly investing your time.

Yet you ignore the fact your investing the time for future returns.

Actually it's not a stupid question to ask about any financial transaction that takes time to accomplish. Time is money and a quick $$/Hour can give you an idea if something is worth doing or not.

If you're interested in working time for money, and not building any kind of ongoing asset with an appreciating income, then Amway is absolutely not for you.

As for more complicated situations involving investment and building companies over time they are generally even more analyzed than this. For example at my company we have to establish a current company valuation for various reasons (pricing options for example). I could easily figure out my profit per hour up to this point by calculating my equity stake, pay etc up to this point.

(1) That would not be "easily" figured out.
(2) In itself it wouldn't tell you much

You could have three different businesses where using your method you calculated the "profit/hour" and at that point they were exactly the same. Yet in one business the smart option would be to sell it before it's worth decreased. In another the smart option would be to keep working to increase it's worth, and in the third the smart option could be to shut the whole thing down!

Your "profit/hour" tells you nothing.

I would love to see a solid financial analysis of the long term REAL income that is passive in Amway. My guess is that future dollars would have to be dramatically discounted anyway given how quickly these networks seem to disappear when people quit working.

Ten years later, mine is still there! And that was in a scenario where your sentence is actually relevant - people quit working. In a properly developed Amway network that doesn't happen. In the average Diamond business, there's more than 30 people in that business all getting avg $50k/yr income part-time. If the Diamond stopped working for whatever reason, why on earth would they?

My sponsor stopped working their Amway business 8 years ago. They weren't yet Platinums. 8 years later that business has at least a dozen platinums in it I know of and has spread to numerous countries. They continue to earn an income, and it's quite likely increasing.

Unfortunately no solid numbers are really available because they like to hide as much as possible due to the craptastic profits.

Have you gone and found a tennis pro and asked for their P/L statements yet?
 
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While you're at it, since it's "easy" to determine, could you get Roger Federer to tell us his "profit/hr"? I'm considering becoming a tennis pro ....:rolleyes:

Heck, any tennis pro would do ....
 
(1) That would not be "easily" figured out.
(2) In itself it wouldn't tell you much

You could have three different businesses where using your method you calculated the "profit/hour" and at that point they were exactly the same. Yet in one business the smart option would be to sell it before it's worth decreased. In another the smart option would be to keep working to increase it's worth, and in the third the smart option could be to shut the whole thing down!

Your "profit/hour" tells you nothing.


It's tells you nothing? Seriously? Nothing? Seriously? Nothing? (where's Seth and Amy when you need them).

Kahn, I'm laughing at the superior intellect.

You wonder why people are skeptical about your business? This kind of crap is the reason. You can't give us P/L statements. You can't even make an estimate of the profit per hour invested UP TO THIS POINT? And if you do it means nothing?

Would it make you happier if we included a valuation of the company in the equation? Company valuations tend to include future earnings so:
total profit + company valuation / hours worked
should get us some kind of idea of the value proposition here?

And while we are on this topic why don't you tell us how Amway business are valued typically? I'm curious if I built up my business to say a diamond level how much I could sell it for.

Bottom line, your refusal to engage when it comes to actual numbers makes it more likely that this is a scam. Every time we see numbers from Amyway they reveal the same thing over and over. Crap profitability for the average IBO, lots of tools profit for the kingpins and a huge lack of any kind of good information on actual profit for those in the middle of the pyramid.

Even some quick back the envelope calculations shows the Amway business to be sucktastic compared to almost anything else (it might beat lottery tickets).

You can't just trot out bonus checks from people at the top of the pyramid and claim that this is a good business. You have to look at the AVERAGE case. For example if the average diamond business takes 10 years to build I want to see the profitability curve for the entire time. If you have to lose money and invest huge amounts of time over a long period that may be the equivalent of investing a large sum.

How long does it take the average diamond to go diamond? How much money do they make or lose along the way? Once the average diamond stops working the business how long does the residual income last? Dollars per hour is just a simplification of all of these calculations to give an overall idea of how well your time has been spent. If you include company valuation then it's a very good indicator.

As for your tennis pro strawman doing an actual estimate would be pretty easy for a pro athlete. Take the amount of hours they've spent to become good (typically 10,000+ by the beginning of a pro career), the amount of money they've made up to now and divide. This will show an abrupt edge if done over time. This edge represents the risk inherent in this type of all or none strategy. If you make it big you will make large dollars and everything will work out. If you don't make it big then you will likely not be profitable at all. This is one reason that I wouldn't recommend someone use a pro athlete strategy to run their lives.

The time that you are working without making money is your investment and represents your risk. I personally think most Amway people completely misrepresent the risk involved because they don't consider time to have value.

Bottom line, it's a waste of time compared to almost anything else. Sitting on your ass collecting welfare is probably time better spent than "building an Amway business".

Plain and simple it's a brainwashing business cult that relys on a continuous stream of suckers chasing an unlikely dream.
 
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