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Yet more NLP BS

By the way, i don't know if anybody noticed it, but the moment i use embedded commands, everyone starts spilling out Derren's secrets. Amazing! It works! :)
 
Lothario said:
Yes, but exactly what can you achieve with a pattern interrupt? You say something strange in the middle of a conversation, the other person is thinking "who the hell is this weirdo?" then what? What can you get a person to do?
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I don't know that it can be used for anything. I do know that something approaching that idea exists, because it happened that time at the ATM. The very clear memory of it has stayed with me for all the intervening years. Why? Because it was so unusual to me. I have generally good recall of facts and figures, and have memorized my 16-digit credit card number, plus the 3-digit security number on the back. This makes it easy to shop on the internet because I don't need to go and get the card every time I make a purchase.


M.
 
Senex nailed it with that last post. Derren Brown uses NLP just like David Blaine uses voodoo and Criss Angel uses shamanism. Or whatever. It's all simple misdirection.
They're all tricks. Even Derren's explanations for his tricks are misdirection. When he's in front of the camera or on stage, you really shouldn't believe a word he says. Just enjoy. ;)

Lothario said:
By the way, i don't know if anybody noticed it, but the moment i use embedded commands, everyone starts spilling out Derren's secrets. Amazing! It works! :)
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Wow, that IS amazing... I take back everything I've ever said about NLP!
 
For those who remember, and without further comment from me, the great Dr. Jonathan Miller on the Dick Cavett show in 1981, discussing Mesmerism/hypnosis.

Enjoy.


M.
 
Moochie said:
For those who remember, and without further comment from me, the great Dr. Jonathan Miller on the Dick Cavett show in 1981, discussing Mesmerism/hypnosis.

Enjoy.


M.
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I think that's not the right link, Moochie.

I watched this funny episode of Penn and Teller's ********! on Hypnosis some time ago. Here is Part I.
 
It's a small world. I am still doing research on NLP and today i found a thread about NLP in a magic/mentalism forum (i think it's quite popular amongst the conjuror crowd):

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=90877&forum=15&start=0

Funny thing is one of the users, JoaoPedro, is actually the first person i heard raving about NLP. I was aware that he was a mentalist at the time and he did buy into the NLP explanation to Derren's tricks. Actually, i think he's the reason why i know Derren's work at all.

Does anybody know anything about this forced 3 of Diamonds think? Is it something like this?

I'm sorry to keep bugging you guys, i just want to cover all the grounds here.
 
Lothario said:
It's a small world. I am still doing research on NLP and today i found a thread about NLP in a magic/mentalism forum (i think it's quite popular amongst the conjuror crowd):

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=90877&forum=15&start=0

Funny thing is one of the users, JoaoPedro, is actually the first person i heard raving about NLP. I was aware that he was a mentalist at the time and he did buy into the NLP explanation to Derren's tricks. Actually, i think he's the reason why i know Derren's work at all.

Does anybody know anything about this forced 3 of Diamonds think? Is it something like this?

I'm sorry to keep bugging you guys, i just want to cover all the grounds here.
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I don't know exactly how he did those tricks, I have a idea, though.

First off, don't use a magician as a bellwether for anything like NLP or hypnosis, no matter what she/he says during the performance. The explanation itself is a misdirection: a trick to get you to look for something that she/he wants you to look for.

Second. Remember that participant wants this to work. Her desire is there, and so is ours after all, we need to be tricked to figure out how we were tricked. Because of that, half the battle is done. She (and we) are open to the suggestions and misdirections he presents. Suggestion works to a point when there is true desire and confusion going on.

Teller explains it much better than I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5x14AwElOk
 
JFrankA said:
I don't know exactly how he did those tricks, I have a idea, though.

Second. Remember that participant wants this to work. Her desire is there, and so is ours after all, we need to be tricked to figure out how we were tricked. Because of that, half the battle is done. She (and we) are open to the suggestions and misdirections he presents. Suggestion works to a point when there is true desire and confusion going on.
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I know exactly how they are all done and there is no NLP or hypnosis with any of the tricks in that video.

The fact that you do not know jfranka may suggest that your opinions are based on a limited amount of information. The bigger picture is always there even though you think you know everything.

Sexex you asked what do I really know about mentalism ? I have read hundreds of books and if you need the list let me know.
I am not really sure why I replied to you as its obvious from your posts that you seem to be mentally unbalanced. Some NLP may be good for you to take a look at yourself and see where you could improve how you feel.

I do know that suggestion is used in some mentalism. if suggestion/influence did not work then neither would the trick

Anyone who has read many Luke Jermay books will know that.

Flame on
 
ok What if I could get you a little script together, something that would take under a minute to perform for you.

You ask a person a series of questions then you ask another final question. The final question would be something like "what colour is grass" The person will 8/10 times answer wrong.

For me its more like 9/10

Let me know and i will post it. I dont really know if this is NLP as such
 
Iknoweverything said:
ok What if I could get you a little script together, something that would take under a minute to perform for you.

You ask a person a series of questions then you ask another final question. The final question would be something like "what colour is grass" The person will 8/10 times answer wrong.
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This is trivial crud and is just an example of confusing people. There are a number of similar "tricks", most of which we all learned in 3rd grade -- there's one floating around the internet asking the viewer to read the name of the color of each word as fast as they can, and it's a picture of words like "green" colored blue, etc.

I dont really know if this is NLP as such
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1) If it isn't NLP, I don't want to see it offered as support that NLP works. Still waiting for you to let us know what specific NLP techniques work, by the way.
2) It's not NLP. It's just an example that if you talk enough nonsense to a person and/or ask a person to repeat nonsense, that eventually they'll get confused. It isn't an example of control or influence.
 
Iknoweverything said:
I know exactly how they are all done and there is no NLP or hypnosis with any of the tricks in that video.

The fact that you do not know jfranka may suggest that your opinions are based on a limited amount of information. The bigger picture is always there even though you think you know everything.
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I'm sorry if I sound like I am about to "flame" you but due the fact you have picked and chose what to respond to my posting seem to be a misdirection to me.

Just because I do not know exactly how it's done doesn't mean I don't know the tricks. I'm sure that even Derren Brown or Luke Jeremy or Banachek would know how every trick is done.

The point is that this is NOT NLP. This is merely suggestion that works because (as I said from square one) THE PERSON THAT IS TAKING THE SUGGESTION WANTS IT TO HAPPEN. The final decision always, always falls on the subject. If they are confused to a point, that will aid in having the subject decide on the more obvious decision. That, along with sleight of hand, misdirection, etc, is what a mentalist does.

This does not mean, at all that this will work in getting someone to buy something they don't want, nor getting a woman who normally wouldn't be interested in you into your bed.

It seems to me that NLP are taking something that is a momentary, quick thing and blowing it up into something special. It's the same logic of saying "Well, two aspirin cured my headache, then ten aspirin would cure my back ache and my cramps and the pain in the toe I just stubbed".

Sexex you asked what do I really know about mentalism ? I have read hundreds of books and if you need the list let me know.
I am not really sure why I replied to you as its obvious from your posts that you seem to be mentally unbalanced. Some NLP may be good for you to take a look at yourself and see where you could improve how you feel.
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Who's flaming now? And what books? Why is reading "hundreds of books" relevant to this topic? Didn't you say in an earlier post that NLP is a placebo? And NOW you're suggesting it would improve how he feels?

Yeah, sugar always makes me feel better...and fatter... :rolleyes:

I do know that suggestion is used in some mentalism. if suggestion/influence did not work then neither would the trick

Anyone who has read many Luke Jermay books will know that.
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This is true but what does this have to do with NLP? NLP is about getting people to do what you want even if they don't want to do it and it's permanent. I've said it before and I'll say it again - suggestion works for the mentalist because a) the audience WANTS to be fooled, b) the mentalist throws in a lot of confusing patter and misdirection, c) the suggestion lasts only as long as the performance.

That's it! Period. And it all what I've been saying from the beginning.

I'm sorry, I have to ask this: Don't you read what I write?

Flame on
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Enjoy the fire. Sorry, you asked for it.


ok What if I could get you a little script together, something that would take under a minute to perform for you.

You ask a person a series of questions then you ask another final question. The final question would be something like "what colour is grass" The person will 8/10 times answer wrong.

For me its more like 9/10

Let me know and i will post it. I dont really know if this is NLP as such
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*Yawn* More bragging? Is that what you are looking for? Fine:

I can get a person to guess a random card I pulled out of a deck. I get that 9/10 too. So?

That doesn't prove NLP - that suggestion, confusion and the desire on the subject's part to play along and get it right.

In your trick, that's just suggestion and confusion.
 
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I think we are going off-topic here. The question is not whether it is possible to fool or trick someone. There's no doubt about it. If i confuse or distract someone, i can snatch their wallet, switch an envelope without them seeing it, get them to sign something they don't want to, etc. Ok. That's not the point here.

The point is: 1) Is NLP any good? and specially 2) Can i use any of the techniques that fall under the umbrella of NLP, like embedded commands, describing a pleasurable experience and then linking it to myself with an "anchor", ericksonian handshakes and pattern interrupts to get someone to do or feel as i wish?

Examples: "After over a decade of experience and research, and feedback from literally thousands of students, I’ve come up with simple but proven powerful language patterns designed to by-pass a woman’s left-brain critical “check list” through which she normally screens guys." Ross Jeffries

"Just last night Kim and I were out to dinner and this guy came up to us and began to talk. It seems that he had made over a million dollars yesterday in the stock market. Well we figured if he had done that well that he should buy us dinner…and he did! We also got some very interesting investment advice that I plan on using! No I did not just trance him. When trance is used with anchoring and rapport, what you get is a 123 punch that is almost unstoppable!!!" Tom Vizzini

"When "The Dark Side" patterns are used - it not only can change an opinion, it can destroy and totally obliterate a mind. And it stays in operation until you get it fixed or until you slowly, over time, put the pieces back into place. But for some people, that will never happen and the devastation is total". Kenrick Cleveland

This is the kind of stuff they are selling. Self-improvement uh?
 
Lothario said:
The point is: 1) Is NLP any good? and specially 2) Can i use any of the techniques that fall under the umbrella of NLP, like embedded commands, describing a pleasurable experience and then linking it to myself with an "anchor", ericksonian handshakes and pattern interrupts to get someone to do or feel as i wish?
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My assessment is "no -- you can only get someone to do or feel things that they wanted to do or feel in the first place."

Examples: "After over a decade of experience and research, and feedback from literally thousands of students, I’ve come up with simple but proven powerful language patterns designed to by-pass a woman’s left-brain critical “check list” through which she normally screens guys." Ross Jeffries
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Note how he doesn't really actually _say_ anything here or make any claims; he just says that these "patterns" are designed to do "X". Not only that, he begins with an unsupported generalization about women that cannot hold true in all cases.

"Just last night Kim and I were out to dinner and this guy came up to us and began to talk. It seems that he had made over a million dollars yesterday in the stock market. Well we figured if he had done that well that he should buy us dinner…and he did! We also got some very interesting investment advice that I plan on using! No I did not just trance him. When trance is used with anchoring and rapport, what you get is a 123 punch that is almost unstoppable!!!" Tom Vizzini
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Even presuming the basic truth of the anecdote (since this story could be fabricated out of whole cloth and looks very suspicious at first glance -- why are seven-figure stockbrokers walking up and talking to random people?), I could ask some guy who'd just made a million to buy me a $30 dinner jokingly, and he probably would, no NLP required. Also note that he doesn't claim that he used _anything_ on this guy; he just lets the reader assume it for themselves.

"When "The Dark Side" patterns are used - it not only can change an opinion, it can destroy and totally obliterate a mind. And it stays in operation until you get it fixed or until you slowly, over time, put the pieces back into place. But for some people, that will never happen and the devastation is total". Kenrick Cleveland
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This one's simple; if it was true he could demonstrate it at will, but he hides it behind the Too Evil to Use excuse. I can't speak for the JREF, but I bet Kenrick's claim might even be eligible for the MDC -- "destroying or totally obliterating a mind" should be trivial to test.
 
Ah... I was wondering when this would show up. Lawyers using NLP.

I'm trying to find more studies on the persuasion uses of NLP, but i can't find anything.
 
Iknoweverything said:
Sexex you asked what do I really know about mentalism ? I have read hundreds of books and if you need the list let me know.
I am not really sure why I replied to you as its obvious from your posts that you seem to be mentally unbalanced. Some NLP may be good for you to take a look at yourself and see where you could improve how you feel.

I do know that suggestion is used in some mentalism. if suggestion/influence did not work then neither would the trick

Anyone who has read many Luke Jermay books will know that.

Flame on
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Don't give me a list of books -- give me a list of effects that you believe can work that relies on NLP. No explanations -- just the title of the effect. I have performed a couple of effects from Jermay's 7 Deceptions and the woo hand gestures work best with a crowd that know you are not a skeptic. I believe I know what works and why much better than you do, despite you calling me mentally unbalanced. Since you did call me mentally unbalanced I believe you have created a burden on yourself to prove my opinion of NLP in mentalism is the work of an unbalanced mind. Unbalanced is a lousy thing to call another person without reason -- especially when you one believes in NLP and how it can cure me :D
 
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