Yet more NLP BS

[Lothario]

Good point. Those who live near me, i could get in my car and follow them around to see if they are really don juans or great salesmen, but then again i could never really tell whether or not it was because of NLP. Not to mention i would never bother to do so lol.
I don't see what they would benefit from bragging about something that they didn't do to some stranger on a web forum (although that was what IKE did).

 

[remirol]

I don't see what they would benefit from bragging about something that they didn't do to some stranger on a web forum (although that was what IKE did).

Men have been bragging about (and vastly overstating) their 'conquests' since recorded history started being, well, recorded. I don't know that it's productive to ask "why" anymore as much as it is productive to recognize the phenomenon exists.

 

[Lothario]

Yeah, once again you make a good point.
BTW, i noticed some time ago that there's a topic on debunking NLP on the JREF's Facebook page. Do you know if Randi (or any other skeptic) ever wrote something on the subject?

 

[remirol]

No se, senor.

 

[JFrankA]

My point is, regardless of their profession, men of science can be just as gullible as the rest of us. Perhaps more so if there is just enough real science as to make it sound credible.

And that's why a site like this is run by a magician.

BTW, i noticed some time ago that there's a topic on debunking NLP on the JREF's Facebook page. Do you know if Randi (or any other skeptic) ever wrote something on the subject?

Derren Brown (another magician, a skeptic and an atheist) does touch on this in his book "Tricks of the Mind". In fact, he describes an NLP class he actually attended in the book. (I'll spoil it for you - he compares it going to a revivalist mass). He does state that he uses the eye thing when he is performing, but he's not conviced in works outside that venue. His take on it, and I tend to agree with him, is that it might help you when you make a suggestion to a subject, if the situtation is right (e.g. the subject is willing and/or confused), but for any claims beyond that it's blown completely out of the water.

Personally, I suspect that a lot of woo starts with something like a study that comes out that says "if you do W when X and Y are happening, it might improve the status of Z a little." And suddenly people just exagerate, extrapolate and create things that are completely wrong but sound good.

I believe NLP (and hypnosis) is one of those kinds of woo.

 

[Lothario]

I have that book and i read the part where he talks about NLP.
The problem with DB, like i said in the Conjuror's Corner, is that he's always vague about NLP. I posted some bits from an interview where he says that everytime he gets asked about NLP, he replies that it's part of what he does. He never says exactly WHAT does he use that is NLP.

 

[JFrankA]

I have that book and i read the part where he talks about NLP.
The problem with DB, like i said in the Conjuror's Corner, is that he's always vague about NLP. I posted some bits from an interview where he says that everytime he gets asked about NLP, he replies that it's part of what he does. He never says exactly WHAT does he use that is NLP.

Oh. Okay, sorry, I was going by memory. I thought he was more clear....or maybe I misunderstand what you are asking.

At any rate, when I get home, I'll re-read the chapter.

 

[Lothario]

Oh. Okay, sorry, I was going by memory. I thought he was more clear....or maybe I misunderstand what you are asking.

At any rate, when I get home, I'll re-read the chapter.

http://www.jamyianswiss.com/fm/works/derren-brown.html - This is the interview

"DERREN: Well, it depends on whose course you take. In the same way I've taken NLP courses and learned some NLP.
JAMY: Well, there are differing opinions on NLP. There's not a shred of scientific support for it, outside of its own self-sustaining industry, plus a lot of mentalists.
DERREN: Well, I not a big a fan of it, but I've done it and think in some contexts there's some use--that's a whole other conversation--but it's a dirty word as far as I'm concerned. If somebody came up to me and said, "Look, I really liked your show, and I'm going to go to an NLP course," which I've had happen, I would say to them, "Well, if you want to do that, do that, but here's what you'll get out of it. It's not what I do. It's part of what I do," which is I think true, I think that's fair enough to say."

 

[MikeSun5]

Everyone seems confident that they have "debunked" all of NLP so rather than argue any more I am happy to agree with you.

Not everyone, just you. See post #124. Your entire reason for joining this thread was to tell us that "not all NLP is BS!" Unfortunately, you ended up agreeing with us. See above quote, and post #124.

And I'd love to indulge and answer these questions...

How do people judge if they like someone more than someone else ?

IS there a skill of Persuasion, if there is how is this done ?

...but neither of the answers involve NLP, so they're not really relevant to the OP.

Do you know if Randi (or any other skeptic) ever wrote something on the subject?

A long time ago, when I started heavily researching NLP, I actually once emailed Randi about his opinions. Ironically (considering the name of this thread), Randi's response was simply, "NLP is bull****."

 

[Eddie Dane]

Actually, here's another video that explains how our decisions can be skewed.

Notice, however, he doesn't explain how the decisions are controlled by someone else, but how we make descions based on the information provided to a person. A very big difference indeed.

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_of_our_own_decisions.html

I finally got around to watching this. Excellent!

Thanks.

 

[Moochie]

There are a couple of experiences I've had that maybe pertain to this discussion.

The first occurred in the pre-dawn of my existence as a critical thinker, almost forty years ago.

I was working the graveyard shift in a service station when a customer diddled me out of $20 by some form of distraction/misdirection routine. I was vaguely aware that something was going on at the time, but realized too late that the guy had swindled me. I learned later that it was a well-known con job -- well-known by those who'd had it done to them, I suppose, because I had no knowledge of it and no one had ever mentioned it. Suffice to say that the routine involved the exchange of a bunch of smaller bills for a large bill, or something like that. I can't actually remember the specifics, only that it happened and that at the time a small beacon went off in my mind.

It has never happened to me again.

The second instance occurred a few years ago. I was about to withdraw some cash from an ATM, and just as I was about to punch in my PIN, my wife spoke to me -- asked me something, I don't recall. What I do recall is that I couldn't complete my ATM transaction because I had "suddenly" forgotten my PIN. It seems my wife's speaking to me just as I was retrieving the PIN from my memory somehow interrupted the retrieval process -- "scrambled" my brain, so to speak -- so that I couldn't complete the transaction until some time later, when presumably my brain became "unscrambled" and my PIN once again became accessible.

I don't think these experiences are unique, from what countless others have told me.

Does anyone care to comment, whether in regard to NLP or not?


M.

 

[Lothario]

There are a couple of experiences I've had that maybe pertain to this discussion.

The first occurred in the pre-dawn of my existence as a critical thinker, almost forty years ago.

I was working the graveyard shift in a service station when a customer diddled me out of $20 by some form of distraction/misdirection routine. I was vaguely aware that something was going on at the time, but realized too late that the guy had swindled me. I learned later that it was a well-known con job -- well-known by those who'd had it done to them, I suppose, because I had no knowledge of it and no one had ever mentioned it. Suffice to say that the routine involved the exchange of a bunch of smaller bills for a large bill, or something like that. I can't actually remember the specifics, only that it happened and that at the time a small beacon went off in my mind.

It has never happened to me again.

The second instance occurred a few years ago. I was about to withdraw some cash from an ATM, and just as I was about to punch in my PIN, my wife spoke to me -- asked me something, I don't recall. What I do recall is that I couldn't complete my ATM transaction because I had "suddenly" forgotten my PIN. It seems my wife's speaking to me just as I was retrieving the PIN from my memory somehow interrupted the retrieval process -- "scrambled" my brain, so to speak -- so that I couldn't complete the transaction until some time later, when presumably my brain became "unscrambled" and my PIN once again became accessible.

I don't think these experiences are unique, from what countless others have told me.

Does anyone care to comment, whether in regard to NLP or not?


M.

I think this could be the trick that was used on you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8lsSPshxJ4

As for the ATM part, i think it could be what is called a pattern interrupt. If i remember this stuff correctly, if you interrupt someone's thought pattern, they go into some sort of confused state. Something like that. JFrankA can probably explain it better than i can.

 

[MikeSun5]

As for the ATM part, i think it could be what is called a pattern interrupt. If i remember this stuff correctly, if you interrupt someone's thought pattern, they go into some sort of confused state. Something like that. JFrankA can probably explain it better than i can.

That's exactly right. The NLPers think that by saying or doing something unexpected during a routine encounter breaks the "pattern" (the pattern being your normal behavior). I've heard of therapists trying to use pattern interrupts to deal with breaking habits and addictions, but mostly they're hailed by people claiming to do covert hypnosis and other nonsense.

The "covert hypnotist" may do something like this: You just met your "victim" and are going through the normal routine. Introductions, where you work, etc. The victim asks, "Where are you from originally?" And the hypnotist claps his hands and says, "No, officer. I've never owned a snake." The victim is now confused, in a mild hypnotic trance, and highly suggestable.

Moochie's post was exactly what an NLP believer would cling to when defending it. Unfortunately, those type of brain farts don't happen to everyone, and most certainly don't happen all the time - otherwise poor Moochie would be freaking out. There are a lot of distractions out there to interrupt all the patterns we go through every day.

I've noticed Derren Brown likes to throw bones to the NLP crowd during some of his routines. I saw some pattern interrupts in 'The Heist,' and he really likes using the "handshake interrupt."

 

[Lothario]

That's exactly right. The NLPers think that by saying or doing something unexpected during a routine encounter breaks the "pattern" (the pattern being your normal behavior). I've heard of therapists trying to use pattern interrupts to deal with breaking habits and addictions, but mostly they're hailed by people claiming to do covert hypnosis and other nonsense.

The "covert hypnotist" may do something like this: You just met your "victim" and are going through the normal routine. Introductions, where you work, etc. The victim asks, "Where are you from originally?" And the hypnotist claps his hands and says, "No, officer. I've never owned a snake." The victim is now confused, in a mild hypnotic trance, and highly suggestable.

Moochie's post was exactly what an NLP believer would cling to when defending it. Unfortunately, those type of brain farts don't happen to everyone, and most certainly don't happen all the time - otherwise poor Moochie would be freaking out. There are a lot of distractions out there to interrupt all the patterns we go through every day.

I've noticed Derren Brown likes to throw bones to the NLP crowd during some of his routines. I saw some pattern interrupts in 'The Heist,' and he really likes using the "handshake interrupt."

I'm not sure it's a term that NLPers invented, i think it's something they picked up from hypnosis.
I've noticed Derren Brown doing this "handshake induction" or the "pattern interrupt" during a couple of routines. Like on the "Russian Scam". Truth is i can't explain the routine with or without pattern interrupt. It would be great if someone could... FEEL THE NEED to... EXPLAIN WHAT DERREN DOES (notice the embedded commands ).

P.S. Ross Jeffries has updated his website. He is now selling his new Mindframe product which reveals you the secrets of... hypnotic copywriting

 

[JFrankA]

I'm not sure it's a term that NLPers invented, i think it's something they picked up from hypnosis.
I've noticed Derren Brown doing this "handshake induction" or the "pattern interrupt" during a couple of routines. Like on the "Russian Scam". Truth is i can't explain the routine with or without pattern interrupt. It would be great if someone could... FEEL THE NEED to... EXPLAIN WHAT DERREN DOES (notice the embedded commands ).

Can't.....resist.....must.....give.....away......magician......secrets...........

Remember this: Derren Brown is a magician. He tells you at the beginning of every show he does that he uses misdirection, sleight of hand, psychological tricks, etc. The one thing he doesn't mention doing is something magicians call "Duel Reality". Duel Reality is simply the act of doing a trick that makes the audience see one effect, but the spectators see another. No woo to this. Just simple misdirection and sleights of hand.

For example, I can do a trick in which the spectator in which they choose a card then I pass my hand three times over the cards. At the end, to the spectator, she has thinks she forgot what card she chose, but to the audience, I've predicted the card she was going to choose. It's done with sleight of hand, misdirection and a patter that causes some confusion to the spectators. No hypnosis, no NLP.

Derren is far better than anyone else at these kinds of tricks and a lot of what he does has that duel reality and confusing patter going. A lot of his patter is meant to sound like what he does could be true, but if you are willing to "scratch under the surface", you'll see it's just patter. And once more, if you ask him straight out he'll just tell you it's a trick.

Remember that Derren Brown is just a magician. Using him as a way to confirm NLP or hypnosis works is like using Star Trek to confirm that aliens exist.

 

[JFrankA]

About pattern interrupt, it boil it down to this: Confusion. Period. The human brain is always looking for patterns. That's why people see Jesus' face in wood, cheese sandwiches or whatever. That's why people hear satanic messages when they play ordinary conversation backwards. We are always looking for patterns. Sometimes we overdo it.

So when you do something out of the ordinary, off the pattern so to speak, people get confused.

It's no secret. It happens all the time. Just really that simple.

 

[Lothario]

About pattern interrupt, it boil it down to this: Confusion. Period. The human brain is always looking for patterns. That's why people see Jesus' face in wood, cheese sandwiches or whatever. That's why people hear satanic messages when they play ordinary conversation backwards. We are always looking for patterns. Sometimes we overdo it.

So when you do something out of the ordinary, off the pattern so to speak, people get confused.

It's no secret. It happens all the time. Just really that simple.

Yes, but exactly what can you achieve with a pattern interrupt? You say something strange in the middle of a conversation, the other person is thinking "who the hell is this weirdo?" then what? What can you get a person to do?

 

[Senex]

My woo detecter is going off. Trust me, Darren Brown does not use NLP. Not ever. NLP is woo and Darren Brown is a brick and mortar performer. Therefore Brown doesn't use NLP. I can explain 90% of what he does with my modest yet functional library of mentalism at arms reach from my bed. Brown does standard mentalism. He just is gifted at misdirection.

Let's take pattern interuption. I don't understand it because it is woo. Darren Brown might a take a camera crew and perform for a hundred or so people for every one person that gets televised just to get the right "pattern interuption" eye movement from some deer in the headlight audience member, in order to get NLP'ers to ooh and aah at his ability.


The issue I have with Darren Brown is the issue I had with my generation's mentalist, The Amazing Kreskin. Now, I'm an adult and I have made a study of suggestion. I am excellent at detecting certain types of BS. However, I wasn't so sharp when I was 13. Kreskin misled me. I occasionally perform magic and mentalism and perhaps Kreskin was inspirational -- but he did make me believe things that weren't true when I was young and gullible. I'm still uncertain about how I should feel about him.

I am certain Darren Brown misleads young people today just as Kreskin misled me. Let's look at one of Brown's effects that I am unce3rtain of how he performs. He did this effect on TV where he got employees at a horse racing venue to pay him on losing tickets. His shtick was he banged his fist twice and stated "you will pay on this winning ticket" or something similar. Total baloney. The only way I can see how he did this was he bet every horse on a previous race and asked the clerk off-camera to pay him later. The bottom line is however he performed this trick was off-camera. I know darn we he can't make people give him money by just asking. He wouldn't be in the entertainment business if he could. He woulld be in the fat and lazy criminal enterprise. I wondr how many children think they can say some bulloney assertively and bang their hand on a table twice and think they will trick someone.

Bang Bang Cindy Crawford, you are going to fool around with me!

I'm a child at heart.

 

[remirol]

Yes, but exactly what can you achieve with a pattern interrupt? You say something strange in the middle of a conversation, the other person is thinking "who the hell is this weirdo?" then what? What can you get a person to do?

Besides think you're a weirdo? Not much.

I mean, OK, then the person's confused, right? Fine. They're confused. But unless they were in the middle of actually doing something that they're now going to try to complete while confused (this is why the above-mentioned money-swindle works, because the person is _required_ to handle the money), you aren't going to be able to get very much at all to happen. Ideally you'd get them to commit to something that they'll later feel bad about uncommitting to and thus would do the thing they didn't want to do in the first place. But that sort of action is completely unreliable, as most people have no qualms about saying "wait, I agreed to eat babies? OK, I'm not doing this" later -- because it's not something they wanted to do in the first place.

Magicians can use this to distract a person. But this again isn't so much about getting a person to do something as it is allowing _yourself_ to do something undetected.

 

[JFrankA]

Besides think you're a weirdo? Not much.

I mean, OK, then the person's confused, right? Fine. They're confused. But unless they were in the middle of actually doing something that they're now going to try to complete while confused (this is why the above-mentioned money-swindle works, because the person is _required_ to handle the money), you aren't going to be able to get very much at all to happen. Ideally you'd get them to commit to something that they'll later feel bad about uncommitting to and thus would do the thing they didn't want to do in the first place. But that sort of action is completely unreliable, as most people have no qualms about saying "wait, I agreed to eat babies? OK, I'm not doing this" later -- because it's not something they wanted to do in the first place.

Magicians can use this to distract a person. But this again isn't so much about getting a person to do something as it is allowing _yourself_ to do something undetected.

Took the words right out of my ..err...fingers.

I am certain Darren Brown misleads young people today just as Kreskin misled me. Let's look at one of Brown's effects that I am unce3rtain of how he performs. He did this effect on TV where he got employees at a horse racing venue to pay him on losing tickets. His shtick was he banged his fist twice and stated "you will pay on this winning ticket" or something similar. Total baloney. The only way I can see how he did this was he bet every horse on a previous race and asked the clerk off-camera to pay him later. The bottom line is however he performed this trick was off-camera. I know darn we he can't make people give him money by just asking. He wouldn't be in the entertainment business if he could. He woulld be in the fat and lazy criminal enterprise. I wondr how many children think they can say some bulloney assertively and bang their hand on a table twice and think they will trick someone.

He actually did a 30 minute special on that one particular trick. (Part one is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX94fV4TWbc) and if you don't want to watch it, his method is below:

You are right. He does bet on every horse.

He also performs then exposes how he can flip a coin and get it land on heads 10 times in a row without a camera edit.

As to whether he misleads people, I tend to disagree. IMHO, Derren brown is different than Kreskin because once the spotlight is off, he makes no bones about the fact that he's just a magician. He doesn't sell NLP products, all his books are magician's books (revealing secrets to his tricks) and he's a skeptic as well. If someone is fooled by Derren, it's because they didn't dig deep enough.

As another example of what I mean, before every show, I tell my audience that I have no powers, that hypnosis is no more powerful than watching a movie, that any tricks I do are tricks, and I still get people asking me to help them lose weight, get girls, speak to the dead.

People are going to believe what they want to believe, no matter how much you throw the truth at them, unfortunately.