Moderated Legitimate 9/11 Questions

T.A.M. said:
......which people, IF ANY, dropped the ball in such a way as to make them culpable, at least in part, for the failure to prevent the attacks.
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As with all surprise attacks, it was primarily an Intelligence failure. The clues were there, but no one with enough power to do anything acted in an appropriate manner to "start the ball rolling".

I would conclude from this that the FAA, CIA, and FBI were the agencies mostly at fault (Not necessarily in that order). For other than the heads of those agencies, perhaps the National Security Adviser, Rice and perhaps Clark would be those in the Executive Branch most responsible.

However, I don't believe anything at all would be accomplished by firing them or even punishing them. All one would end up with is perhaps someone less capable. I don't believe any of them did or did not do anything intentionally, or were even incompetent. ***** happens. It was a surprise attack and that's the purpose of a surprise attack..... surprise your enemy!!! Duh!

It's classic warfare. Study the vulnerabilities of your enemy and hit them when and where they least expect it. If not a 9/11 style attack it could have been done another way. I won't suggest how, as I don't want to give anyone ideas......
 
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Hey, I keep telling you guys, I am a truther. I don't buy it for one second that the CIA did not know everything said in the Kuala Lumpur meeting in 2000. But, without evidence to the contrary, guess I have to take them at their word that all of the laser/microwave equipment was in the shop that day.
 
911files said:
Hey, I keep telling you guys, I am a truther. I don't buy it for one second that the CIA did not know everything said in the Kuala Lumpur meeting in 2000. But, without evidence to the contrary, guess I have to take them at their word that all of the laser/microwave equipment was in the shop that day.
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People should read Bamford's The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America
 
Reheat said:
It's classic warfare. Study the vulnerabilities of your enemy and hit them when and where they least expect it. If not a 9/11 style attack it could have been done another way. I won't suggest how, as I don't want to give anyone ideas......
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Some of the Red Cell assessments were pretty frightening. In particular, a mass casualty scenario at a shopping mall or other large-scale public venue with limited security and in/out points was deemed not just 'likely,' but 'almost inevitable.'

Look at the horror brought on by one disturbed teenager with a hunting rifle.

Now imagine that scenario with your aggressors being hardened well equipped terrorists, with significant paramilitary training in places like Afghanistan and the Bekaa Valley.

Now think about the real security potential of most shopping malls in regard to their personnel and capabilities. Do most malls do mass casualty drills, making sure to involve the managers of the various stores and kiosks? I don't know for certain, but my guess would be no.

A Beslan-type scenario right in the middle of Christmas. The very idea is sickening, more so when you consider how relatively easy it would be to execute for the OPFOR.

What's the best step for preparedness? Enhanced security awareness and drills would be a fantastic start. SWAT units regularly running this kind of scenario would be another good thing - I'm sure they've read similar LE assessments of vulnerability and have prepared accordingly.

But as Mr. Miyagi once opined, "best defense - no be there."

Continue to disrupt these cells at every stage, from planning to procurement to execution. Cut off the head of the snake before it bites.

But as in the case of 9/11 - enough people not seeing the forest for the trees can make for a very bad day indeed.
 
Bobert said:
Well we must not forget Swine Flu, chemtrails, and weather manipulated hurricanes.
Its just a matter of time until we are sitting in a FEMA CAMP!
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You forgot Rush Limbaugh...
 
JoeyDonuts said:
Look at the horror brought on by one disturbed teenager with a hunting rifle.

Now imagine that scenario with your aggressors being hardened well equipped terrorists, with significant paramilitary training in places like Afghanistan and the Bekaa Valley.
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Agreed. If one took a cell with the same number of perps as was used on 9/11 of experienced riflemen with the proper equipment into more than one of the "Gun Free Zones" within a specific locality, that cell could easily kill as many people or more than were killed on 9/11. Fortunately, all of the mass shootings have been by not so capable perpetrators, and they have been in only one location.

They wouldn't be able to destroy large buildings with conventional explosive, but they sure could kill a lot of folks in a very short period of time.

Now, whose fault would that be??????
 
TexasJack said:
If the FBI and the CIA were able to be on the same page, there would have been no attacks, end of story. "Perfect Soldiers" and "The Looming Tower" are important reads. Hindsight is 20/20, and I agree with Reheat that the feeling at the time is that it could never happen, so security was not on its toes at the airports, etc.

Improvements and lessons have been learned, and thankfully, knock on wood, the US has not been attacked since.
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The Anthrax murders.

The Beltway Snipers (who had some religious connections and I would like to see a good investigative book come out about them.)

There have been several attacks on "American Interests" overseas since 9/11 but that's where the soft targets are.

There have been a series of half-assed cases of resident Islamists convicted of plotting attacks. These people were certainly not happy living here but I am of the opinion that none of them could or would do anything worse than picking up a gun without the FBI informant that conveniently happened to find them. This is one is typical:


Since the November elections, a bunch of lone Militia types and written and said ugly things and them gone out and shot a few people. One of them wrote that Michael Savage (the radio talk show ranter) wanted him to do it, but not in exactly those words.
 
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Why did the FBI block the investigation into the activities of two of the hijackers, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, who lived openly "in San Diego for more than a year before the attacks" even living with an FBI informant, Abdussattar Shaikh, part of the time?

The quote is from Shenon's excellent book, "The Commission".
 
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Reheat said:
Agreed. If one took a cell with the same number of perps as was used on 9/11 of experienced riflemen with the proper equipment into more than one of the "Gun Free Zones" within a specific locality, that cell could easily kill as many people or more than were killed on 9/11. Fortunately, all of the mass shootings have been by not so capable perpetrators, and they have been in only one location.

They wouldn't be able to destroy large buildings with conventional explosive, but they sure could kill a lot of folks in a very short period of time.

Now, whose fault would that be??????
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I don't know about inflicting 3000+ casualties, even with a trained group of nineteen experienced bad guys, unless they were able to close off all exits from a concert hall or something like that.
 
JoeyDonuts said:
I don't know about inflicting 3000+ casualties, even with a trained group of nineteen experienced bad guys, unless they were able to close off all exits from a concert hall or something like that.
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The key is multiple locations within a defined area. I don't think this ought to be discussed further....


ETA: My point is not to give anyone ideas, but to point out that it is IMPOSSIBLE to always stop a surprise attack by determined attackers!
 
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RedIbis said:
Why did the FBI block the investigation into the activities of two of the hijackers, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, who lived openly "in San Diego for more than a year before the attacks" even living with an FBI informant, Abdussattar Shaikh, part of the time?

The quote is from Shenon's excellent book, "The Commission".
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Did you read the book? I have.

I don't think the FBI can be said to have "blocked" anything. The were not passed information by other agencies. The NSA didn't want to share.

This is by no means a defense of the FBI in general. They made lots of mistakes but it's important to make the accusations accurate.
 
Reheat said:
The key is multiple locations within a defined area. I don't think this ought to be discussed further...
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Agreed. I take some comfort in the fact that if two random people on an internet forum are talking about these things, then security personnel and law enforcement must be as well.
 
JoeyDonuts said:
Agreed. I take some comfort in the fact that if two random people on an internet forum are talking about these things, then security personnel and law enforcement must be as well.
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I have no doubt they are. Now, the lesson here is WHAT IF the various SECURITY measures we have in place today had been implemented prior to 9/11. Even today there is a huge outcry regarding the infringement on CIVIL LIBERTIES due to increased Security measures. One can only imagine the huge outcry if those measures had been implemented BEFORE 9/11. It would have given Alex Jones and his ilk a much more rapid rise to stardom (among twoofers) earlier.

The mindset of Americans would not have allow it without MONTHS of convincing by the Administration. One of the hallmarks of a bureaucracy is that it is resistant to change, short of a catastrophic event.
 
Reheat said:
One can only imagine the huge outcry if those measures had been implemented BEFORE 9/11. It would have given Alex Jones and his ilk a much more rapid rise to stardom (among twoofers) earlier.
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One could also make the argument that had they been implemented before 9/11, 'twoofers' as we know them wouldn't even exist. The connections would have been made, the Hamburg cell would have been disrupted, and there's no telling what else might have happened.
 
911files said:
Hey, I keep telling you guys, I am a truther. I don't buy it for one second that the CIA did not know everything said in the Kuala Lumpur meeting in 2000. But, without evidence to the contrary, guess I have to take them at their word that all of the laser/microwave equipment was in the shop that day.
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One dirty little secret of the CIA, if you take a look at the history of the agency, is that's it's one of the more bloated and incompetent bureaucracies the US has. Please, banish the myth of super spies running around the globe with silenced pistols and long range mics picking up EVERYTHING. The CIA war room with huge monitors and live feeds from satellites with a boss shouting out orders to tech savvy computer whizzes? That's a fiction created by Hollywood.

Here are a few "minor" geopolitical events the CIA missed, completely:

1. The collapse of the Soviet Union. Our #1 mortal enemy for 50 years disintegrated virtually overnight and the CIA had no idea that it was going to happen. No intelligence. No warning. They were caught flatfooted. The all-knowing CIA? Hardly.

2. Missing the fact that somewhere along the way, India got nukes. Whoops!

3. ...and then missing the fact that Pakistan also got nukes! Double whoops!

4. ...and then missing the fact that the Pakistani ISI and A.Q. Khan were operating Nukes 'R' Us all across the globe hand in glove.

5. Missing 9/11. A colossal intelligence failure on the CIA's part. There's no other way to put it.

There are more examples of horrendously blown calls that the CIA made that I can expand on elsewhere if you want.

The CIA used to be "good" at knocking over tin pot socialists and installing some quasi-fascist crony who would let our oil/banana/shipping companies work with a free hand. And that's about it.

If you want to read about super spies, read about the KGB.
 
The first candidate for chairman of the 9/11 commision was Henry Kissinger.
To me that suggest that there were alot to hide.
Lihop sounds too far out for me, so there must have been alot of imcompetence to hide.
 
Good thread, tam.

How did the Naudet Brothers know where to be, all over and outside the WTC, to catch everything on film?
 
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