The 25 fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah chapter 53

DOC said:
Would you say this prophecy about the lamb to slaughter is more accurate with regards to Jesus who was forced to carry his own cross and led to his own execution (during Passover) or to the Jewish nation"?
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Someone knowingly carrying the means of his own execution to the site of the execution can hardly be said to be "unaware of any impending catastrophe".

Regardless, until you can provide any evidence that prophecy is a real phenomenon, then it's just word games.
 
DOC said:
Was the Jewish nation fully aware of impending death? You didn't answer my question:
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I don't know and it doesn't matter. what matters is that the description doesn't fit the Jesus story, therefore the poem doesn't represent a prophecy of jesus.(assuming it was meant to be a prophecy)

DOC said:
Would you say this prophecy about the lamb to slaughter is more accurate with regards to Jesus who was forced to carry his own cross and led to his own execution (during Passover) or to the Jewish nation"?
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False dichotomy. the "lamb to slaughter" doesn't fit the jesus story. Whether or not it fits another story is secondary.

ETA:
And note, that this is just one of many inconsistencies.
joobz said:
Nope.



Now, to get on track.
Here's a list of problems I see with the link you are trying to make.

1.) If Jesus does Fullfill Isaiah, where are his children?
Did Jesus do it with Mary?
2.) Why is the prophecy written in past tense?
3.) What kind of insane crazy person thinks that being born as a baby is unattractive?
4.) If he was "He was despised and rejected by men", why did Jesus have followers?
5.) If he was "Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not", why did he have followers?
6.) "he was led like a lamb to the slaughter," The Gospel account says otherwise. In fact, according to the story, Jesus knew full well why he was being killed. How can this be rectified?
7.) "and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth." And this too if false. The different gospels have jesus saying multiple things during his crusifiction. from "why have you forsaken me" to "Lord to your arms I commend my spirit." How do you explain this inconsistency?
8.) " though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth." This too is false. Jesus explained that the whole point of his parables were to keep others confused about his message.Matthew 13:11-15 That's rather deceitful, don't you think?
9.) "and he will divide the spoils with the strong". Yet, jesus said, "Blessed are the meek..." Seems that Jesus wasn't interested in the "strong". How can you explain this inconsistency without being blatantly dishonest in interpretations?
10.) "by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities". This is a very weird one. Why would God refer to Jesus as "his servant"? I though Jesus was his son/him? Stranger and stranger...
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DOC said:
Was the Jewish nation fully aware of impending death?
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Quick note here:

We're Jews. We're always aware of impending death, because there is always some bat-**** crazy-ass fundamentalist doing his best to exterminate us.

Which is why you piss me the **** off!
 
zooterkin said:
Someone knowingly carrying the means of his own execution to the site of the execution can hardly be said to be "unaware of any impending catastrophe".
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The Jewish prophet Isaiah says this:

"he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,"

It doesn't say anything about awareness. What if the prophecy just refers to what it says -- the simple act of a lamb being led to the slaughter.

Regardless, until you can provide any evidence that prophecy is a real phenomenon, then it's just word games.
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Well suppose for argument sake we assume Prophecy is real, then my question as was asked earlier is

Would you say the prophecy "he was led like a lamb to the slaughter," is more accurate with regards to Jesus who was led to his own execution by Roman soldiers or more accurate with regard to the Jewish nation"?
 
DOC said:
The Jewish prophet Isaiah says this:

"he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,"

It doesn't say anything about awareness. What if the prophecy just refers to what it says -- the simple act of a lamb being led to the slaughter.
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It has already been explained. The metaphor implies that the person being led is unaware of thier fate.
 
Cleon said:
Quick note here:

We're Jews. We're always aware of impending death, because there is always some bat-**** crazy-ass fundamentalist doing his best to exterminate us.

Which is why you piss me the **** off!
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Can you name one?
 
joobz said:
It has already been explained. The metaphor implies that the person being led is unaware of thier fate.
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That could be one implication. It also could mean just what it says - a lamb being led to its death.

The metaphor also strongly implies the lamb was killed, Has the Jewish Nation ever been killed like Jesus was?
 
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DOC said:
That could be one implication. It also could mean just what it says - a lamb being led to its death.

The metaphor also strongly implies the lamb was killed, Has the Jewish Nation ever been killed like Jesus was?
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Again, False dichotomy.
Don't worry about Isreal, worry about the fact that the poem does not fit the jesus story. You seem to wish to take the "lamb to the slaughter" line as as a partial metaphor simply to pigeon hole it to fit the jesus story (and it is just a story). Well let's see if we take it literal or metaphorical... How does it fit:
1.) Jesus knew of the upcoming death (not as a metaphorical lamb)
2.) Jesus had to carry his own means of death (not as a literal lamb is treated).
3.) Jesus wasn't slaughtered but crucified (again, not as a literal lamb)
4.) Jesus supposedly rose from the dead (metaphorical or literal lambs don't come back to life)
 
DOC said:
T
It doesn't say anything about awareness. What if the prophecy just refers to what it says -- the simple act of a lamb being led to the slaughter.
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Well, lambs are pretty stupid animals.
Would you say the prophecy "he was led like a lamb to the slaughter," is more accurate with regards to Jesus who was led to his own execution by Roman soldiers or more accurate with regard to the Jewish nation"?
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The Jewish Nation. Jews are always terrified of being destroyed and killed since it has happened before.
 
DOC said:
That could be one implication. It also could mean just what it says - a lamb being led to its death.

The metaphor also strongly implies the lamb was killed, Has the Jewish Nation ever been killed like Jesus was?
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Yes. You must not have heard of how the Jewish nation was sacked and destroyed several times...and resurrected!!!
 
DOC said:
The metaphor also strongly implies the lamb was killed, Has the Jewish Nation ever been killed like Jesus was?
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Are you kidding me? Do you know anything about Jewish history?


Have you bothered reading Isaiah, or did you pull this ridiculous argument off a website?

You do know that there are four songs of the servant of Yahweh and Iasiah 53 is simply the fourth?

Should we look at the others? How about the first?

Isaiah 42:

[1]
Behold my servant, whom I uphold,

my chosen, in whom my soul delights;
I have put my Spirit upon him,
he will bring forth justice to the nations.
[2] He will not cry or lift up his voice,
or make it heard in the street;
[3] a bruised reed he will not break,
and a dimly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
[4] He will not fail or be discouraged
till he has established justice in the earth;
and the coastlands wait for his law.
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Did Jesus not cry of lift up his voice? Or not make his voice heard in the street? Did he not fail until he had established justic in the earth?


Isaiah 42:
[18] Hear, you deaf;
and look, you blind, that you may see!
[19] Who is blind but my servant,
or deaf as my messenger whom I send?
Who is blind as my dedicated one,
or blind as the servant of the LORD?
[20] He sees many things, but does not observe them;
his ears are open, but he does not hear.
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Jesus is blind and deaf? Really? Is that what you think?


You do realize that leading the blind to see and the deaf to hear is a frequent theme in Isaiah that the gospel writers stole?

Should we move on to the next song? It doesn't get any better.
 
Hokulele said:
The people who wrote and maintain that vile hate-mongering website you linked in the Jefferson thread.
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Ooohh. Is that what he's asking? Is DOC really trying to imply that antisemetism doesn't exist?
 
DOC said:
The Jewish prophet Isaiah says this:

"he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,"

It doesn't say anything about awareness. What if the prophecy just refers to what it says -- the simple act of a lamb being led to the slaughter.



Well suppose for argument sake we assume Prophecy is real, then my question as was asked earlier is

Would you say the prophecy "he was led like a lamb to the slaughter," is more accurate with regards to Jesus who was led to his own execution by Roman soldiers or more accurate with regard to the Jewish nation"?
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Well if lambs are routinely whipped, fitted with a crown of thorns and forced to carry a cross to the butcher site then I guess he was led like a lamb.
 
Ichneumonwasp said:
Are you kidding me? Do you know anything about Jewish history?


Have you bothered reading Isaiah, or did you pull this ridiculous argument off a website?

You do know that there are four songs of the servant of Yahweh and Iasiah 53 is simply the fourth?

Should we look at the others? How about the first?

Isaiah 42:




Did Jesus not cry of lift up his voice? Or not make his voice heard in the street? Did he not fail until he had established justic in the earth?


Isaiah 42:



Jesus is blind and deaf? Really? Is that what you think?


You do realize that leading the blind to see and the deaf to hear is a frequent theme in Isaiah that the gospel writers stole?

Should we move on to the next song? It doesn't get any better.
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I pointed this out earlier, as well as the part where it is stated, quite clearly, that the songs are about Israel.
DOC, predictably, never replied...


X said:
On a more informative point:

Most scholars hold the quoted passages (part of the for "Songs of the Suffering Servant", Isa.42:1-4 , 49:1-6 , 50:4-9 and 52:13 -53:12) to begin at Isaiah 52:13.
Accordingly, here is the beginning of the song...

Isaiah 52
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14 As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.



I will also point out that the Jews view the servant in these songs as being the nation of Israel.
In fact, Isaiah 49:3 identifies Israel explicitly.
And said to me, You are my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.


Oh, and you might want to compare Isaiah 53 with Mosiah 14.
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joobz said:
Name one what?
Are you asking Cleon to name forum members who are jews? Are you creating a list?
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and checking it twice. He will check out who is Jewish or of Christ. Sheriff DOC is coming to town.
 
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