Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[KreeL]

vapor? who is claiming vapor? ACTUAL fuel went down the elevator shafts. JUST where do you think that much fuel is going to go?

If ALL the fuel from the plane didn't explode on impact, hypothetically, and entered just one floor of the WTC tower without igniting, and you were standing in it, it wouldn't reach up to the swoosh of your Nikes.

Now look at the reality of the fireball, and what was left, you tell us how much went down the elevator shafts (assuming the elevator doors were open on those floors). If kerosene DID breech the shafts, it would have to drip a quarter mile and then re-ignite on something and explode (if that's even possible -rather than just burn). Can you tell us what that could be? AND there happens to be film from the inside of the lobby of the North Tower after the impact. No smoke, no soot, nobody complaining about the smell of kerosene, just damage everywhere from an obvious explosion. No elevator doors blown off, but glass all blown out.

Pray much?

 

[bio]

If ALL the fuel from the plane didn't explode on impact, hypothetically, and entered just one floor of the WTC tower without igniting, and you were standing in it, it wouldn't reach up to the swoosh of your Nikes.

Now look at the reality of the fireball, and what was left, you tell us how much went down the elevator shafts (assuming the elevator doors were open on those floors). If kerosene DID breech the shafts, it would have to drip a quarter mile and then re-ignite on something and explode (if that's even possible -rather than just burn). Can you tell us what that could be? AND there happens to be film from the inside of the lobby of the North Tower after the impact. No smoke, no soot, nobody complaining about the smell of kerosene, just damage everywhere from an obvious explosion. No elevator doors blown off, but glass all blown out.
(...)

I can follow you, but in one point your are not right:

"It was quite hectic, and we did what we could to stay in contact with the elevator passengers while helping to direct other people out of the building and direct firemen to the stairs and the elevators," Bobbitt remarked. "When entering the North Tower, we saw the marble on the walls was severely cracked, and Riccardelli told everyone to stay back from the walls. Don (Parente) noticed that the doors of elevators number 6 and 7 had been blown out."
From "Courage Above and Beyond the Call of Duty: A Report of the September 11"

What really strange is, is the location of most of the damage in the lobby. Most of the damage is not around the shaft of elevators 6 / 7 but in a complete different area. I have here a graphic. it is called "north tower lobby condition". Perhaps somebody can public it here... and debunkers can offer their explanation.

 

[beachnut]

Nobody designs for 10s of thousands of gallons of flaming gasoline and no water for firefighting.

Bill, how much experience with fireballs to you have?

http://pyrotechnics.no-ip.org/files/pyromaniac_1.jpg
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Like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQOUuJ1DWI
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I asked Bill a question and a yes/no answer in this post. I still want to see him answer it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4699039#post4699039
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3 911Truth delusion believers with no rational conclusions can't figure this out!

They avoid science and make up stuff by cherry-picking whatever they can and with shallow or no research they make a triple post. 7 years and they have no clue.

 

[KreeL]

Have you seen Naudet's "911"? Pay close attention as the camera enters the north tower lobby and pans around. It shows the elevator banks. No doors blown out. No smoke. No soot. Do you believe your own eyes?...or has faith blinded you.

 

[beachnut]

... research the last days, ... why the jet fuel fireballs on sublevel B4 and in the lobby of WTC 1 could be so destructive.

The keyword is backdraft. The burning jet fuel cascading/raining down the elevator shafts of car number 6,7 and 50 would consume all available oxygen in the shaft on its way down. Behind the burning front of the fireball, in the shafts, there would follow a cloud of expanding hot gasses including evaporated jet fuel, CO and likely pyrolyzed jet fuel, all lacking oxygen to combust.

When the fireball shot out of the shafts at the bottom, all the unburned gasses mixed with fresh air and rapidly deflagrated, causing the overpressure that blew out walls and windows.

Normally backdraft occurs in fires when fresh air suddenly enters the confined space of an oxygen starved fire. The principle would be the same for an oxygen starved fireball that shoots in to a room filled with fresh air.

Here is a YouTube video from Uruguay showing the effect of a backdraft. And it also gives an impression of what it would have looked like when the fireballs shot out of the elevator shafts.

Here is an artificially created backdraft.

According to this article by Vincent Dunn moderate amounts of over-pressure can fail walls. Here is another article discussing violent fire deflagrations including backdraft.

Regarding the time for the fireballs to reach the bottom of the shafts witness Edward McCabe gives the following account:


According to Wikipedia large raindrops impacts ground with a speed of 9 m/s. This gives a fall time for a fuel drop from the impact area to the bottom of the shafts of about 40 seconds. But the time would very likely be somewhat shorter due to down draught from falling elevators and expanding fire-gasses. So the timing of Edward McCabe looks very reasonable. By the way, evaporated/pyrolyzed jet fuel creates white smoke.

Nothing earth shattering, but hopefully it gives a better understanding of the events.

Norseman

Thanks again; not one 911Truth delusion believer can do this kind of research. Why?

 

[KreeL]

Got any pictures of a quarter mile long fireball?

 

[beachnut]

Just to add to your useful and perfectly reasonable comments,

We expect the "droplets" of jet fuel to be much, much larger than rain droplets. The jet fuel is not all coalescing out of vapor phase. Instead, the droplet size will be driven by Plateau-Rayleigh instability, which states that the droplet radius will be approximately equal to the radius of the original stream of fluid -- potentially quite large. Larger droplets would fall much faster.

I would actually expect the rate of fuel travel to be limited by wetting effects on the sides of elevator shafts, rather than aerodynamic considerations. Not sure how to estimate this without conducting an experiment. In any event, the timing seems plausible to me.

Facts and evidence. Why can't 911Truth use science instead of opinions and failed delusions?

Good post on topic. Now over a year later 911Truth believers can't articulate a scenario to go with their failed ideas.

 

[KreeL]

Now we have faithbased plausibility.

O man, my sides hurt!

 

[bill smith]

Facts and evidence. Why can't 911Truth use science instead of opinions and failed delusions?

Good post on topic. Now over a year later 911Truth believers can't articulate a scenario to go with their failed ideas.

Fuel dripping and fuel in a 600 mph head-on colliion are not the same thing Beachnut. Equally there is no question of 'droplets coalescing out of the vapour' given the split second between atomisatation and ignition. No time for that you see.

 

[beachnut]

you know Kreel;

You gotta keep the faith. If you don't pray for the truth movement, what will their faith have left, but unrepenting sinners? It seems to me you really are no longer a member of the church of 9/11 truth, but rather an outcast, and excommunicated has been. Perhaps you should call up David Ray Griffin and ask for forgiveness. At the very least you should attend a truther church service, and perhaps even as Steven Jones if he can stand in for your confession. So say 100 Hail Richard Gages, and ask James Fetzer to cleanse your soul.

TAM

911Truth; 7 years of nothing.

If they would try to present some fire science they would earn a cure and stop posting lies and delusions. Education is not easy, but it would cure 911Truth dirt dumb delusions.

It must be the 66,000 pounds of fuel they can't grasp; that is a big number and 911Truth is math, physics, and evidence free!

 

[bio]

Have you seen Naudet's "911"? Pay close attention as the camera enters the north tower lobby and pans around. It shows the elevator banks. No doors blown out. No smoke. No soot. Do you believe your own eyes?...or has faith blinded you.

yes - strangely the doors of 6,7 were blown out only to one side. The cars could be entered from two entrances.

from the study, I have:
"Elevator 6 and 7 are explicitly mentioned. Note that Parente speaks of their doors - and not their cars - being blown out. Remember this when we look into other firefighter accounts. The blown doors could be result of a jet-fuel explosion, but not necessarily have to. 6 and 7 had openings on both sides. If the doors were only blown on the north side, this would more likely be the result of an explosion emerging from somewhere outside, as there is no reason to assume that the exploding gas in the shaft would only expand to one side.
If the damage in the lobby was caused by an explosion from shaft 6/7, then we should expect also severe damage including broken glass on the south side, where they had their openings - in contrast to the damage on the west side, shielded by two elevator banks."

"If the express elevators were the origin of the explosion, and if this explosion managed to cause massive damage to the west side of the core and the lobby's outer wall, then we certainly should expect such damage on the south side. But even the windows were intact, though not shielded by two elevator banks like the windows on the westfront, but in direct sight to the southside-openings of elevators 6 and 7. From that we can conclude that their doors were - if at all - blown only on one side, - the north side to the center, thus result of an explosion from outside. Look again at the blurry picture from the core. It doesn't seem that the doors of 6 and 7 have been blown outwards into the corridor floor. Anyway, the picture is inconclusive due to its quality, but at least it does in no way suggest or imply that elevators 6 and/or 7 were the most severed and that it weren't their cars, which had been blown out."

My questions are:
From what results the damage in west side of the lobby?
Why are not there comparable damage in the south side?

 

[bill smith]

somebody mentioned the pressure from the explosion forcing the theoretical fireball down the elevator shaft. But what about when the explosion was over a milisecond later and it sucked air back in to replace what had been burned ?ouldn't it suck the fireball back up the elevator shaft ?

 

[KreeL]

Highly plausible, Bill. The shafts are a two way street.

 

[beachnut]

It's worth pointing out:

1. The official account does not require a fireball to begin at the impact floors and descend to the basement - it only requires jet fuel to descend to the basement, and once there aerosol and ignite. The aerosol of jet fuel can occur at any time, and at multiple times, in multiple locations. This is in contrast to a single fireball.

2. A fuel air explosion as would occur in the scenario above is capable of producing far more damaging over pressure than high explosives. Although high explosives have a higher originating overpressure, this dissipates rapidly thus localising the effects of the blast both in time and space. In contrast a fuel air explosion can produce overpressure that sustains high pressure levels for a much longer period, causing more extensive damage at a greater distance from the origin of the explosion. In addition, a fuel air explosion will produce much more significant heat damage than a high explosive detonation.

3. High explosives are entirely incapable of producing the sort of wounds described by multiple people as being inflicted on Felipe David when engulfed in an explosion that came from the main service elevator shaft. The wounds described - skin hanging off - are specifically consistent with a hydrocarbon fuel explosion. The same wounds were witnessed on victims at the Pentagon and in other parts of the WTC.

In simple terms, had Felipe David experienced a high explosive detonation he would have been ripped apart. His injuries are a result of heat damage and not detonation damage.

Why does 911Truth miss reading all the previous posts and fail each year spewing the same delusions?

An explosive device would kill people from the blast. 7 years and each year the next batch of those fooled by 911Truth show up to spew ignorant ideas already tried and failed.

One year and a new batch of cult members.

 

[bill smith]

Highly plausible, Bill. The shafts are a two way street.

See you later kreel.

 

[alexi_drago]

Your side ofthe argument always calls for calculations and scienrific language Beachnut. You would like to blind us with science. Fortunately 9/11 is accessible to laymen by applying the old common sense mechanism.
'' If it looks like a Duck.
Walks like a Duck.
Quacks like a Duck.
Its a remote controlled Duck packed with nano-thermite''.

Fixed.

 

[BigAl]

somebody mentioned the pressure from the explosion forcing the theoretical fireball down the elevator shaft. But what about when the explosion was over a milisecond later and it sucked air back in to replace what had been burned ?ouldn't it suck the fireball back up the elevator shaft ?

Thousands of gallons of flaming gasoline doesn't pick up after itself.

What is your point? Do you claim that there was no gas in the towers.

Firemen know that on 9/11 liquid gas and gas vapor filled the towers from top to bottom and the fires and explosions of that gas killed people. Until you, Bill, acknowledge that as a fact, all your made up numbers, pseudo-logic, unfounded conjecture and argument from incredulity count for nothing.

 

[BigAl]

yes - strangely the doors of 6,7 were blown out only to one side. The cars could be entered from two entrances.


from the study, I have:
"Elevator 6 and 7 are explicitly mentioned. Note that Parente speaks of their doors - and not their cars - being blown out. Remember this when we look into other firefighter accounts. The blown doors could be result of a
...

Firemen know that on 9/11 liquid gas and gas vapor filled the towers from top to bottom and the fires and explosions of that gas killed people. Until you, bio, acknowledge that as a fact, all your made up numbers, pseudo-logic, unfounded conjecture and argument from incredulity count for nothing.

 

[Dave Rogers]

somebody mentioned the pressure from the explosion forcing the theoretical fireball down the elevator shaft. But what about when the explosion was over a milisecond later and it sucked air back in to replace what had been burned ?ouldn't it suck the fireball back up the elevator shaft ?

In general the underpressure phase of an explosion tends to be less energetic than the overpressure phase. Given a more energetic positive pressure pulse acting in the same direction as gravity followed by a less energetic negative pressure pulse acting in the opposite direction, it's not hard to see which would give the stronger effect. But that's not to say that there wouldn't have been some suction part way back up the shaft; have you any evidence that there wasn't?

Dave

 

[bill smith]

Fixed.

In future I would prefer if you do not change words that are written under my name. That is common forgery. Feel free to highlight words to make a point if you must but no more forgery please..