Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[aggle-rithm]

I cannot understand

Then please, leave the analysis to those more qualified than you, and return to your life of blissful ignorance.

 

[KreeL]

Faithbased 'gas vapor'.

Oh boy. LOL

 

[T.A.M.]

you know Kreel;

You gotta keep the faith. If you don't pray for the truth movement, what will their faith have left, but unrepenting sinners? It seems to me you really are no longer a member of the church of 9/11 truth, but rather an outcast, and excommunicated has been. Perhaps you should call up David Ray Griffin and ask for forgiveness. At the very least you should attend a truther church service, and perhaps even as Steven Jones if he can stand in for your confession. So say 100 Hail Richard Gages, and ask James Fetzer to cleanse your soul.

TAM

 

[leftysergeant]

Faithbased 'gas vapor'.

Oh boy. LOL

Your superstititon is showing again. You religiously assert that there was an explosive charge. What explosive charge will cause third-degree burns to a victim, but not frappe' him?

 

[aggle-rithm]

Your superstititon is showing again. You religiously assert that there was an explosive charge. What explosive charge will cause third-degree burns to a victim, but not frappe' him?

"Real" explosions, of course...the kind you see in movies!

You know, the ones that move slowly enough for the hero to outrun the expanding ball of fire?

Not much good for bringing down buildings, though.

 

[bill smith]

After doing a bit of research the last days, here are some thoughts on why the jet fuel fireballs on sublevel B4 and in the lobby of WTC 1 could be so destructive.

The keyword is backdraft. The burning jet fuel cascading/raining down the elevator shafts of car number 6,7 and 50 would consume all available oxygen in the shaft on its way down. Behind the burning front of the fireball, in the shafts, there would follow a cloud of expanding hot gasses including evaporated jet fuel, CO and likely pyrolyzed jet fuel, all lacking oxygen to combust.

When the fireball shot out of the shafts at the bottom, all the unburned gasses mixed with fresh air and rapidly deflagrated, causing the overpressure that blew out walls and windows.

Normally backdraft occurs in fires when fresh air suddenly enters the confined space of an oxygen starved fire. The principle would be the same for an oxygen starved fireball that shoots in to a room filled with fresh air.

Here is a YouTube video from Uruguay showing the effect of a backdraft. And it also gives an impression of what it would have looked like when the fireballs shot out of the elevator shafts.

Here is an artificially created backdraft.

According to this article by Vincent Dunn moderate amounts of over-pressure can fail walls. Here is another article discussing violent fire deflagrations including backdraft.

Regarding the time for the fireballs to reach the bottom of the shafts witness Edward McCabe gives the following account:


According to Wikipedia large raindrops impacts ground with a speed of 9 m/s. This gives a fall time for a fuel drop from the impact area to the bottom of the shafts of about 40 seconds. But the time would very likely be somewhat shorter due to down draught from falling elevators and expanding fire-gasses. So the timing of Edward McCabe looks very reasonable. By the way, evaporated/pyrolyzed jet fuel creates white smoke.

Nothing earth shattering, but hopefully it gives a better understanding of the events.

Norseman

If I was designing elevators in a hi-rise building I would give them some serious fireproofing. This would protect passengers on the way down and firemen on the way up.

Also I find that fireballs tend to rise- not fall. Peronally I'd say that the fireball(s) came up from the basement levels rather than from above.

 

[BigAl]

If I was designing elevators in a hi-rise building I would give them some serious fireproofing. This would protect passengers on the way down and firemen on the way up.

Nobody designs for 10s of thousands of gallons of flaming gasoline and no water for firefighting.

Bill, how much experience with fireballs to you have?

http://pyrotechnics.no-ip.org/files/pyromaniac_1.jpg​

Also I find that fireballs tend to rise- not fall. Peronally I'd say that the fireball(s) came up from the basement levels rather than from above.

Like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQOUuJ1DWI​

I asked Bill a question and a yes/no answer in this post. I still want to see him answer it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4699039#post4699039​

 

[aggle-rithm]

If I was designing elevators in a hi-rise building I would give them some serious fireproofing. This would protect passengers on the way down and firemen on the way up.

There's a reason they tell you DO NOT USE THE ELEVATORS during a fire.

Also I find that fireballs tend to rise- not fall. Peronally I'd say that the fireball(s) came up from the basement levels rather than from above.

For what purpose?

 

[leftysergeant]

Also I find that fireballs tend to rise- not fall.

They donot fall, but they can be propelled downward. And we are more likely talking about aerosolized and de-oxygenated fuel vapors, driven down from a floor temportarily over-pressurized.[

Peronally I'd say that the fireball(s) came up from the basement levels rather than from above.

And you would be laughably wromg.

 

[bill smith]

They donot fall, but they can be propelled downward. And we are more likely talking about aerosolized and de-oxygenated fuel vapors, driven down from a floor temportarily over-pressurized.[



And you would be laughably wromg.

The pressurisation was over in an instant as soon as the explosion ended yet a fireball was driven directly against it's natural path for nearly a quarter-mile ? I don't think so.

 

[KreeL]

you know Kreel;

You gotta keep the faith. If you don't pray for the truth movement, what will their faith have left, but unrepenting sinners? It seems to me you really are no longer a member of the church of 9/11 truth, but rather an outcast, and excommunicated has been. Perhaps you should call up David Ray Griffin and ask for forgiveness. At the very least you should attend a truther church service, and perhaps even as Steven Jones if he can stand in for your confession. So say 100 Hail Richard Gages, and ask James Fetzer to cleanse your soul.

TAM

How's the church service going tonight, tam? I see that Bill already explained the problems with your Gas Vapor Theory. Now you can begin working on how your gas vapor blew out all the glass in the lobby and displaced granite wall panels without blowing the doors off the elevators. I'll wait til you get with the others and pray about this.

 

[beachnut]

The pressurisation was over in an instant as soon as the explosion ended yet a fireball was driven directly against it's natural path for nearly a quarter-mile ? I don't think so.

How many feet, nearly a quarter-mile; be exact with the feet? Please tell me the natural path. Explain using some science terms.

Are you an expert at fire science? What is your degree in?

 

[KreeL]

I, unlike you, don't have enough faith to believe that vapor went downwards a quarter mile through three elevator shafts or less, and blew up some heavy machinery, blew doors off hinges, leveled the parking garage, and destroyed the lobby. You must have missed the huge fireball a quarter mile up that consumed the vapor of which you speak? Or was this some MAGIC VAPOR? Like the MAGIC PASSPORT!?

Pray tell.

 

[Arus808]

vapor? who is claiming vapor? ACTUAL fuel went down the elevator shafts. JUST where do you think that much fuel is going to go?

 

[bio]

How's the church service going tonight, tam? I see that Bill already explained the problems with your Gas Vapor Theory. Now you can begin working on how your gas vapor blew out all the glass in the lobby and displaced granite wall panels without blowing the doors off the elevators. I'll wait til you get with the others and pray about this.

Hi colleague,
do you want to say, that the doors of elevators 6, 7 and 50 were not blown out into the lobby? I did not know that. IF so, this would be an 100% proof of an inside job for me. The "explosive" material from above, from the airplane, could have taken only these two shafts (of 6,7,50) to come down to the lobby. The explosive material could not "transfer" to another elevator shaft in a skylobby.
greetings
bio

 

[bill smith]

How many feet, nearly a quarter-mile; be exact with the feet? Please tell me the natural path. Explain using some science terms.

Are you an expert at fire science? What is your degree in?

Your side ofthe argument always calls for calculations and scienrific language Beachnut. You would like to blind us with science. Fortunately 9/11 is accessible to laymen by applying the old common sense mechanism.
'' If it looks like a Duck.
Walks like a Duck.
Quacks like a Duck.
Its a Duck ''.

 

[Arus808]

Hi colleague,
do you want to say, that the doors of elevators 6, 7 and 50 were not blown out into the lobby? I did not know that. IF so, this would be an 100% proof of an inside job for me. The "explosive" material from above, from the airplane, could have taken only these two shafts (of 6,7,50) to come down to the lobby. The explosive material could not "transfer" to another elevator shaft in a skylobby.
greetings
bio

wow, nothing in posts suggest what you are stating. talk about reading something that wasn't even stated.

bias much?

 

[beachnut]

Your side ofthe argument always calls for calculations and scienrific language Beachnut. You would like to blind us with science. Fortunately 9/11 is accessible to laymen by applying the old common sense mechanism.
'' If it looks like a Duck.
Walks like a Duck.
Quacks like a Duck.
Its a Duck ''.

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. ... Albert Einstein

You can't do math and physics so you make the with the 911Truth standard weapon; talk.

All your outstanding common sense has you spewing dirt dumb ideas of other people. Now that is common sense for you.

But you can't present science to support your ideas; it is clear to me as you hide behind the talk tactic and never have to to math or physics, or present some fire science. You are evidence free and now you will post more talk, no flame propagation models or information useful in this discussion or any discussion on 911; just your failed common sense.

Your side ofthe argument always calls for calculations and scienrific language ...

Did you mean to be anti-intellectual; are you proud to not use a bit of science? Have you always avoided science? I think that is smart for 911Truth because the light of science destroys your delusions.

 

[Arus808]

Your side ofthe argument always calls for calculations and scienrific language Beachnut. You would like to blind us with science. Fortunately 9/11 is accessible to laymen by applying the old common sense mechanism.
'' If it looks like a Duck.
Walks like a Duck.
Quacks like a Duck.
Its a Duck ''.

you do not understand what common sense means (the common opinion of the people - has no basis in truth or fact or even based on evidence)

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." -Albert Einstein

Common sense lead people to believe that the earth was flat
Common sense lead people to believe that women were inferior to men

Science and FACTS are used to support what happened on 911. NOT common sense.

IF every one relied on common sense, then we wouldn't have doctors today.

 

[bill smith]

vapor? who is claiming vapor? ACTUAL fuel went down the elevator shafts. JUST where do you think that much fuel is going to go?

I think that after the shattering impact between the plane and the building that caused the structure to sway back and forth for four minutes it will be obvious to you that all the fuel in the plane was converted to atomised vapour. We know that there were only 10,000 gallons of of fuel to start with and some say that around 70% of that went up in the initial fireball. That left about 3,000 gallons (say 40 bathtubs full) to be atomised and spread over several acres of floors.

If you try to light only part of a cloud of volatile atomised jet fuel you will surely fail meaning that ALL the jet fuel would have burned off pretty well immediately- inside and outside. Threfore it's unlikely that there was any fuel to go down the elevator shafts.