Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[Seymour Butz]

I reject this explanation .

I'm sure you do.

That's because you're not informed enough to know the difference between a deflagration and an explosion.

Lefty Sarge explains it in layman's terms.

Read it.

Learn it.

 

[BigAl]

These destructions result, according to you, from the explosive material in the airplane. In Basement 4 there were:

- "all of the ceiling tiles was falling down",
- "the light fixtures were falling swinging out of the ceiling,
- "The walls were caving in"

additionally we have a witness account of Edward McCabe, building engineer:

Here is the full text of all I can find by McCabe. Nothing here is unusual given that there was a gas vapor explosion on the basement. At WTC, people were burned badly. They were not "blown up".

This is what a gas explosion looks like:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2178600570591048350
​

At about 8:45 a.m., he [McCabe] was in the refrigeration plant of the B5 level when he suddenly felt the building shake. An instant later, a door to
his left was blown off its hinges. Boris Bronsteyn, his colleague, and
a 30-year veteran, was taking readings nearby. The freight elevator
shaft exploded into the area where they were. (Later Ed would learn
that the jet fuel had filled the elevator shaft causing the
explosion.) Ed walked up to the door and tried to open it but it was
jammed, but he was able to force it open. Entering the smoke filled
office of Turner Construction, he saw that all of the office
partitions within 50 feet were blown down by the force of the
explosion. He helped several people who were bleeding and burned.

http://www.iuoeiettc.org/Old files/Old PDF files/Responding to Horror_WTC.pdf
​

 

[bill smith]

At Basement 4 Edward McCabe, building engineer, felt a slight shifting of the building, and we have not evidences of "explosive events". In this moment, Mc Cabe was even outside the tower's foundation. Come on. Why do you not reject the witness-account like BigAl?



Do you mean, that the shifting of the foundation comes from the plane impact? According to NIST, the plane impact was about the half the towers experienced in strong wind storms (see source down).

If the shifting of the foundation was caused by the plane impact, we would expect this to have happened over a longer period - as long as the duration of the heavy wind.

Sorry - I reject your idea. Please provide evidence, that during heavy wind, the foundation of the tower was shifting. Thank you. As long, as you cannot provide evidence, I see the shifting as a result of the explosions, which are reported by numerous witness accounts.

NIST:
The maximum deflection at the top of the tower was estimated to be more than 1/3 of the drift resulting from original design wind loads (about 45 inch in the N-S direction). Since the lateral stiffness of the building before and after impact was essentially the same, it can be concluded that the additional stresses in the columns due to this oscillation were roughly 1/3 of the column stresses resulting from the original design wind loads. The building demonstrated an ability to carry this additional load and therefore, still had reserve capacity.

About 7 secs into this video you can see a crack in the street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im-Dyk8TNb8

 

[bio]

Here is the full text of all I can find by McCabe. Nothing here is unusual given that there was a gas vapor explosion on the basement. At WTC, people were burned badly. They were not "blown up".

This is what a gas explosion looks like:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2178600570591048350
​

Blasts burn people (not - only fireballs do that).

Miscellaneous Blast Effects (Quaternary Blast
Injuries)
This category of blast trauma includes burns from fire or radiation, crush injury associated with structural collapse, poisoning from carbon monoxide or other toxic products of the explosion, and inhalation of dust or chemicals from the explosion
Source: http://www.storysmith.net/Articles/B...ies 0406.pdf

Vulnerability of Buildings to Blast Damage and Blast-Induced Fire Damage
by Ronald J. Massa
When the detonation occurs inside a building and in a confined and fuel-rich space, such as in a parking garage, the hot gases from the detonation cannot expand freely to mix with an ever-increasing volume of cooler air. The shock effects and mechanical damage from the explosion will overturn vehicles, fracture gas tanks, break pipes, and breach walls, exposing a variety of materials to the hot gas cloud. Many of these will ignite, generally on the periphery of the affected space, where the expanding gas causes the least local oxygen deprivation.1 Thus, suddenly the detonation will spawn many separate fires. From that point on, the building will respond as it would had each of the fires been set with a match. However, if the building were severely damaged by the blast, life safety systems may be incapacitated, gas lines severed, and electrical systems disturbed, all of which will increase the fire vulnerability of the building.
USFA-TR-076/February 1993 107

 

[bio]

Regarding the experience of Edward McCabe the interested reader should take look at post 725 in this thread for a complete context and sourced quotes.

Bio do you understand the difference between a sustained wind loading and the sudden impact of Flight 11? The later delivering the energy equivalent of about 600 kg of TNT within the fraction a second. Judging by the level of destruction up in the impact zone, that can certainly be considered an "explosive event".

Could you please post the design wind speed for the two towers Bio and the correct equivalent on the Beaufort scale? Your post is bit misleading on this Bio.

The sudden impact caused the tower to sway. Yes, but this motion was not more, than the "motion" during medium wind loads. The towers swayed around 20 inch at their top. The is is about the half the towers experienced during strong wind storms.

The swaying is the decisive point, as I proved.

So - what caused the foundation of WTC 1 to shift, as this was obviously an unique event. After my theory it was caused by explosion, according to you due to the plane impact.

 

[Norseman]

The sudden impact caused the tower to sway. Yes, but this motion was not more, than the "motion" during medium wind loads. The towers swayed around 20 inch at their top. The is is about the half the towers experienced during strong wind storms.

The swaying is the decisive point, as I proved.

So - what caused the foundation of WTC 1 to shift, as this was obviously an unique event. After my theory it was caused by explosion, according to you due to the plane impact.

No, the tower's reaction to the impact of Fight 11 was far outside of what the workers inside the building considered normal behavior. The shift/shake McCabe felt down in the basement was nothing compared with what the workers higher up in the tower felt. Have you really read the accounts Bio:
Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts Floors 91-60
Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts, Floors 59-02

Read them!

 

[BigAl]

About 7 secs into this video you can see a crack in the street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im-Dyk8TNb8

NYC had and still has cracks in the sidewalk. Lots of them. What does it have to do with the fireball in the basement of WTC?

Actually, what Bill calls a crack appears to me to be a shadow.

 

[BigAl]

The sudden impact caused the tower to sway. Yes, but this motion was not more, than the "motion" during medium wind loads. The towers swayed around 20 inch at their top. The is is about the half the towers experienced during strong wind storms.

The swaying is the decisive point, as I proved.

So - what caused the foundation of WTC 1 to shift, as this was obviously an unique event. After my theory it was caused by explosion, according to you due to the plane impact.

The foundation didn't "shift". Here is McCabe's statement. Nothing in his statement indicates anything like what you claim.

At about 8:45 a.m., he [McCabe] was in the refrigeration plant of the
B5 level when he suddenly felt the building shake. An instant later, a
door to his left was blown off its hinges. Boris Bronsteyn, his
colleague, and a 30-year veteran, was taking readings nearby. The
freight elevator shaft exploded into the area where they were. (Later
Ed would learn that the jet fuel had filled the elevator shaft causing
the explosion.) Ed walked up to the door and tried to open it but it
was jammed, but he was able to force it open. Entering the smoke
filled office of Turner Construction, he saw that all of the office
partitions within 50 feet were blown down by the force of the
explosion. He helped several people who were bleeding and burned.

http://www.iuoeiettc.org/Old files/Old PDF files/Responding to Horror_WTC.pdf​

 

[bill smith]

The sudden impact caused the tower to sway. Yes, but this motion was not more, than the "motion" during medium wind loads. The towers swayed around 20 inch at their top. The is is about the half the towers experienced during strong wind storms.

The swaying is the decisive point, as I proved.

So - what caused the foundation of WTC 1 to shift, as this was obviously an unique event. After my theory it was caused by explosion, according to you due to the plane impact.

Bio....here's a witness acccount where he mentions feeling an explosion in the ground.
http://truthactionottawa.com/main/?page_id=492

 

[BigAl]

Bio....here's a witness acccount where he mentions feeling an explosion in the ground.
http://truthactionottawa.com/main/?page_id=492
So - what caused the foundation of WTC 1 to shift, as this was obviously an unique event. After my theory it was caused by explosion, according to you due to the plane impact.

No, Bill. There was no explosion that shifted the foundation of a 500,000 ton building.

Hundreds of thousands of people would have noticed teh same event at the same instant.

The two seismic recording systems in operation would have measured it and report it.

 

[LashL]

Not to mention that he didn't say he felt an explosion in the ground. He said he was in a small cafe and heard a sound like a truck going over an empty pothole... er, like an empty truck going over a pothole.

 

[BigAl]

Bio....here's a witness acccount where he mentions feeling an explosion in the ground.
http://truthactionottawa.com/main/?page_id=492

Hyperbole and literal reading strike again.

 

[tsig]

Here is the full text of all I can find by McCabe. Nothing here is unusual given that there was a gas vapor explosion on the basement. At WTC, people were burned badly. They were not "blown up".

This is what a gas explosion looks like:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2178600570591048350
​

Sounds like the "building engineer" was a refrigeration technician.

 

[bio]

No, Bill. There was no explosion that shifted the foundation of a 500,000 ton building.

Hundreds of thousands of people would have noticed teh same event at the same instant.

The two seismic recording systems in operation would have measured it and report it.

It is interesting. Clearly you have a problem with a -shifting- foundation. For a -shifting-, an explosion is needed. This may not be, so it is not the reality. Jref-world. BigAl therefore claims, that the witness account from McCabe about a shifting foundation is faked. No shifting=no explosion. Stupid.
Problem:
The witness account of McCabe stands strongly for a shifting.

Edward McCabe, Story #936, The September 11 Digital Archive, 25 July 2002

"I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4.I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building.I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. "
http://old.911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/936

 

[bio]

No, the tower's reaction to the impact of Fight 11 was far outside of what the workers inside the building considered normal behavior. The shift/shake McCabe felt down in the basement was nothing compared with what the workers higher up in the tower felt. Have you really read the accounts Bio:
Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts Floors 91-60
Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts, Floors 59-02

Read them!

Are you trusting the witness-accounts more than the studies of NIST?
I mean, NIST found out, that the shaking of the building (due to the plane impact) was not greater, than during medium winds.

 

[bio]

Sounds like the "building engineer" was a refrigeration technician.

next step in the jref-program:
If you have a problem with a witness-account, attack the witness personally.

 

[BigAl]

It is interesting. Clearly you have a problem with a -shifting- foundation. For a -shifting-, an explosion is needed. This may not be, so it is not the reality. Jref-world. BigAl therefore claims, that the witness account from McCabe about a shifting foundation is faked. No shifting=no explosion. Stupid.
Problem:
The witness account of McCabe stands strongly for a shifting.

Edward McCabe, Story #936, The September 11 Digital Archive, 25 July 2002

"I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4.I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building.I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. "
http://old.911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/936

The foundation didn't shift. Seismometers would have noticed.

 

[aggle-rithm]

next step in the jref-program:
If you have a problem with a witness-account, attack the witness personally.

It's quite relevant whether it's a structural engineer or a refrigerator technician who claimed that "the foundation shifted". One would be a qualified assessment, the other would be an interpretation.

However, none of this matters as you can't even say what you believe happened on 9/11. As long as you keep arguing over whether someone is an engineer or a technician, you can avoid dealing with the central issues.

 

[BigAl]

next step in the jref-program:
If you have a problem with a witness-account, attack the witness personally.

The children in the "Truth Movement" are impressed with "engineer" in a job title or job description. Not all engineers are equal, Bill.

By the lose standards of AE911, I am an engineer by training and decades of employment and am eligible for membership. I would never try to design a building or state a quantified analysis of a building collapse.

 

[aggle-rithm]

The children in the "Truth Movement" are impressed with "engineer" in a job title or job description. Not all engineers are equal, Bill.

Exactly! The same is true in many lines of professional work.

My wife, since the recession has begun, has often expressed concern about my job security. "A lot of programmers are losing their jobs!" she says. I always respond the same way: "A lot of programmers suck."