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Nightline Debate: Does Satan Exist?

Looks to me like Nightline deliberately picked a panel of the biggest loons they could find. Hoping for that Coast to Coast freakshow audience, I guess. It could have actually been an interesting show with a decent panel. I'd have liked to have seen, for instance, a Fundementalist, a Priest, a Rabbi and maybe some stripe of Islamic cleric discuss this topic.

What can I say? Religions fascinate me.
 
bobcarp said:
And why provide proof when speaking with rhetoric is so much easier....
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Well the fact is the ex hooker is an ex hooker. Something made her want to change and I say it is Jesus.

He did the same for me. I was on my way to my second divorce until the Lord intervened and now with his help my marriage has been reborn. This is a totol God thing as I could not do this on my own strength.

You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!
 
kurious_kathy said:
Well the fact is the ex hooker is an ex hooker. Something made her want to change and I say it is Jesus.

He did the same for me. I was on my way to my second divorce until the Lord intervened and now with his help my marriage has been reborn. This is a totol God thing as I could not do this on my own strength.

You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!
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Why do you avoid discussing the fact that people report life changing experiences that involve other religions? What about someone who gives up a life of crime and drug abuse and dedicates himself to the betterment of his family and community because of the influence of Islam in his life? You say "I was on a path to self destruction but I changed, so Jesus must be real". What about the people who say the same thing about other religions?
 
kurious_kathy said:
Well the fact is the ex hooker is an ex hooker. Something made her want to change and I say it is Jesus.

He did the same for me. I was on my way to my second divorce until the Lord intervened and now with his help my marriage has been reborn. This is a totol God thing as I could not do this on my own strength.

You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!
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How did the lord intervene? Did he appear before you and say "don't get divorced"?

If a Hindu or a person of another religion said the same thing happend to them (and there are billions) when they devoted their life to THEIR god would that convince you they are right? Why should your rhetoric convince us?
 
kurious_kathy said:
You guys can be a skeptical as you like but I say Satan does exist and he has worked long and hard to destroy people and take them to hell. It's real you guys, Wake UP!
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We know what you say, but you haven't given us any reason to believe you. You have not provided any evidence that any of the supernatural beings that you believe exist, nor have you shown that religion has made you more moral. If your behavior here is any guideline, it has made you horribly immoral.

So I will remain skeptical about your God and Devil until you or someone else provides a good reason not to be. I will not hold my breath.
 
I've been clean & sober since 1994.

I worked the AA/NA program although as an atheist I left out the whole god part.

I never asked god for help or to remove my desire to use. I even laughed my ass off at Sam Kinnison.

Here I am 15 years later & doing fine.

There was a very nice young man who was going to a lot of the same meetings I went to.
He believed in god--but was never preachy about it.

He was what you could call a very "spiritual" individual...in a nice kind of way.

He was always pleasant to listen too--always very positive although he was obviously struggling with his addiction.

One day.....he doused himself in gasoline,lit a match, and that was it.

You have to wonder--what kind of personal hell is a person going through to cause him to not only end his own life---but to end it in such a horrible way.

Just another example of god & his mysterious ways I guess
 
kurious_kathy said:
And if you could acknowledge God is real then you would know Satan and his demons are too.
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Let's look at what we have to accept to go along with this assertion. We must believe that a perfect god made everything, that it was good, but that one of his angels led a rebellion against him and in turn corrupted human beings as the serpent in the garden of Eden. This same rebellious angel and his minions continue to try to destroy human beings through spiritual warfare even today.

We are told by apologists for this view that the reason Satan and his fellow rebellious angels chose to revolt was that God gave angels and humans free will. Thus, some would choose evil. The problem with this explanation is that, God being perfect, all of his creations would logically reflect his perfection. Thus, given a free will choice between good and evil, they would choose good. Angels, including Satan, would also have intellects far above our own and would be able to see in advance the consequences of their actions.

Therefore, Kathy, to accept your world view, we have to believe that an all good God created a being, Satan, who chose evil, even knowing that his rebellion would most likely fail. Once the revolt failed, this same fallen angel, again a being of superhuman intellect, did not repent and seek forgiveness, but instead continues in disobedience and evil, even knowing that God will eventually destroy him.

On God's part, we have a creator whose omniscience must have told him in advance that Satan would rebel and mess up his creation. Yet, he created Satan anyway.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Leaving all this aside, however, the only evidences you have presented for spiritual warfare, demonic attack and the existence of Satan are your own subjective belief that you were being physically assaulted by demons, the commonality of your subjective sensations with those of the former prostitute and the evidence of changed lives among those who've accepted Jesus.

I've already answered that the commonality of experience could just as easily reflect a commonality of neurological symptoms. Others on this thread have pointed out changed lives among those who've accepted Allah and among atheists who have adopted a given, structured program of behavior.

So, we are still left without any evidence of the existence of demons and have no more reason to beleive in them than we have to accept the existence of giant sea serpents. Since one cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is on the person making a positive assertion, whether it is for the existence of sea serpents, angels or devils.
 
Ralph said:
I've been clean & sober since 1994.

I worked the AA/NA program although as an atheist I left out the whole god part.

I never asked god for help or to remove my desire to use. I even laughed my ass off at Sam Kinnison.

Here I am 15 years later & doing fine.

There was a very nice young man who was going to a lot of the same meetings I went to.
He believed in god--but was never preachy about it.

He was what you could call a very "spiritual" individual...in a nice kind of way.

He was always pleasant to listen too--always very positive although he was obviously struggling with his addiction.

One day.....he doused himself in gasoline,lit a match, and that was it.

You have to wonder--what kind of personal hell is a person going through to cause him to not only end his own life---but to end it in such a horrible way.

Just another example of god & his mysterious ways I guess
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I think I have highlighted the key word.


M.
 
TimCallahan said:
Let's look at what we have to accept to go along with this assertion. We must believe that a perfect god made everything, that it was good, but that one of his angels led a rebellion against him and in turn corrupted human beings as the serpent in the garden of Eden. This same rebellious angel and his minions continue to try to destroy human beings through spiritual warfare even today.

We are told by apologists for this view that the reason Satan and his fellow rebellious angels chose to revolt was that God gave angels and humans free will. Thus, some would choose evil. The problem with this explanation is that, God being perfect, all of his creations would logically reflect his perfection. Thus, given a free will choice between good and evil, they would choose good. Angels, including Satan, would also have intellects far above our own and would be able to see in advance the consequences of their actions.

Therefore, Kathy, to accept your world view, we have to believe that an all good God created a being, Satan, who chose evil, even knowing that his rebellion would most likely fail. Once the revolt failed, this same fallen angel, again a being of superhuman intellect, did not repent and seek forgiveness, but instead continues in disobedience and evil, even knowing that God will eventually destroy him.

On God's part, we have a creator whose omniscience must have told him in advance that Satan would rebel and mess up his creation. Yet, he created Satan anyway.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Leaving all this aside, however, the only evidences you have presented for spiritual warfare, demonic attack and the existence of Satan are your own subjective belief that you were being physically assaulted by demons, the commonality of your subjective sensations with those of the former prostitute and the evidence of changed lives among those who've accepted Jesus.

I've already answered that the commonality of experience could just as easily reflect a commonality of neurological symptoms. Others on this thread have pointed out changed lives among those who've accepted Allah and among atheists who have adopted a given, structured program of behavior.

So, we are still left without any evidence of the existence of demons and have no more reason to beleive in them than we have to accept the existence of giant sea serpents. Since one cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is on the person making a positive assertion, whether it is for the existence of sea serpents, angels or devils.
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I find it amusing that, for all this talk of belief and nonbelief, I have to ask, how many among us believe that science (or the fruits thereof) will ultimately save us from the perceivable catastrophe this planet (and everyone on it) is likely to experience thanks to the effects of human interference in the ecosystem? Did we even understand what an ecosystem was a few decades ago? Yet, as far as I can see (admittedly no farther than anyone else) we, as a species, are continuing along our merry way as if there will always be potable water; as if there will always be breathable air; as if there will always be enough usable energy to power all of our inventions eg, oil, coal, uranium, etc, and most importantly, IMO, we continue to reproduce as though there were no tomorrow.

We're in trouble now. How will we be when there are 10, or even 20 billion of us, if the species manages to survive?


M.
 
Moochie said:
how many among us believe that science (or the fruits thereof)
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I don't believe in science, but I do trust the scientific method (in regard to formulating questions and finding answers to 'reality' stuff)

...the perceivable catastrophe this planet (and everyone on it) is likely to experience thanks to the effects of human interference in the ecosystem?
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Maybe this might be better in a new thread...
 
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Moochie said:
We're in trouble now. How will we be when there are 10, or even 20 billion of us, if the species manages to survive?


M.
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Well, if we could convince people that the earth was not given to us by a god and that there really is no Rapture, we might actually make progress.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Well, if we could convince people that the earth was not given to us by a god and that there really is no Rapture, we might actually make progress.
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Although the overwhelming majority of us have never subscribed to Judeo Christian-style nonsense, we are - it seems - nevertheless going backwards (for examples: see the skies and waterways etc of China, India and Africa)
 
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