Nightline Debate: Does Satan Exist?

[TimCallahan]

In 2 Corinthians 12:7 - 9 Paul says:

And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger from Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Well, Kathy, I see nothing here about any "buffeting". Further, buffeting seems unlikely, since the problem of the "thorn in the flesh" seems to be something chronic from which Paul has repeatedly asked God to deliver him. So, unless you are asserting that Paul went through the rest of his life with a demon pounding on him, I'd say buffeting is out. I would be interested to hear what verses you're using to contend that the thorn in the flesh was a demon beating on Paul.

As to the similarity of symptomology in different cases of demonic attack, this sounds more like something involving the chemistry of the nervous system, a common symptomology relating to a common neurochemical problem. As I said previously, testimonies are notoriously hard to prove and tend to be tainted by subjective sensations and shared belief systems. Have you got some evidence to support demonic attack that is a bit more objective in nature?

As to a monolithic world government, heralded by the common currency of the European Community, it's a long way from contiguous states in a geographically small area sharing a common currency to a global government. As to it being predicted by the Bible, the only thing that could refer to would be everyone taking the mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16 - 18). If that is your source, it's quite a stretch to convert a mark on one's forehead and hand into a universal monetary currency and a one-world government. You also have a problem with Rev. 1:1 (emphasis added):

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants WHAT MUST SOON TAKE PLACE; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

"What must soon take place" really doesn't stretch over 2,000 years.

 

[Paulhoff]

False relgion is another huge problem since there is so much that is not true. And the list goes on and on.

And with your great knowledge of how things work, you just know which one is the so-called true one.

NOT

Paul

 

[Moochie]

Tim the first part of your questions are difficult to go into in depth since Satan still has power to deceive this world and he has booby trapped it everywhere.

<snipped for mercy>

I think bras are a "Satanic booby trap."


M.

 

[six7s]

Tim the first part of your questions are difficult to go into in depth since Satan still has power to deceive this world and he has booby trapped it everywhere.

<snipped for mercy>

I think bras are a "Satanic booby trap."


M.

D is for deceive

D_{(hexadecimal)} = 13_(decimal)

Coincidence?

I think not!

Conclusive evidence: Satan wears a D-cup!

 

[kurious_kathy]

In 2 Corinthians 12:7 - 9 Paul says:

And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger from Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Well, Kathy, I see nothing here about any "buffeting". Further, buffeting seems unlikely, since the problem of the "thorn in the flesh" seems to be something chronic from which Paul has repeatedly asked God to deliver him. So, unless you are asserting that Paul went through the rest of his life with a demon pounding on him, I'd say buffeting is out. I would be interested to hear what verses you're using to contend that the thorn in the flesh was a demon beating on Paul.

As to the similarity of symptomology in different cases of demonic attack, this sounds more like something involving the chemistry of the nervous system, a common symptomology relating to a common neurochemical problem. As I said previously, testimonies are notoriously hard to prove and tend to be tainted by subjective sensations and shared belief systems. Have you got some evidence to support demonic attack that is a bit more objective in nature?

As to a monolithic world government, heralded by the common currency of the European Community, it's a long way from contiguous states in a geographically small area sharing a common currency to a global government. As to it being predicted by the Bible, the only thing that could refer to would be everyone taking the mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16 - 18). If that is your source, it's quite a stretch to convert a mark on one's forehead and hand into a universal monetary currency and a one-world government. You also have a problem with Rev. 1:1 (emphasis added):

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants WHAT MUST SOON TAKE PLACE; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

"What must soon take place" really doesn't stretch over 2,000 years.

Did I say buffeting meant he was getting beat on by his demon? Again it's interpretation that makes the difference. I say he heard or saw this demon (like many others still do) that was attched to him. The fact is everyone has demons they battle daily. God gives us angels to help but Satan assigns his dermons too since he is nothing more than a God copy cat wanna be.
and the verse I am referring to is 2 Corinthians 12:6-8 which in the New King James says For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

So in todays modern day psychologists would have locked Paul up as psychotic but he wasn't, he tells the truth. How do you explain the 1% in the world poulation that hears audible voices? I say it's the angelic realm for some so do not discount this as heresay.

And I have no problem with Rev1:1 so I do not know where you are going with this statement. I know God gave these visions to John and we are watching Gods story unfold to the end. Many speculate on what the mark of the beast will be but no one is really sure. Could be the chips the military is already experimenting with? I'm not sure but I know by accepting Christ I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit so I am his.
All I can say if it gets to the point where we cannot even get groceries without a special mark to go to the store and get food I will refuse it.

 

[kurious_kathy]

And with your great knowledge of how things work, you just know which one is the so-called true one.

NOT

Paul

The HolySpirit is the one that reveals the truth to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, He is the one that helps us discern the lies from the truth.

I tell you the truth, you do not know what you are missing outside of Christ! Why walk in darkness when the light is so much better?

 

[TimCallahan]

As to the interpretation of "buffeting," you were the one who said that a demon buffeting Paul was the SPECIFIC nature of his thorn in the flesh. If you say this was what "thorn in the flesh" specifically refers to, that implies a specific, rather than a general, interpretation of the word "butffet." As I recall, you said this in response to my assertion that nobody knows specifically what was the nature of Paul's thorn in the flesh.

While I shouldn't be srprised that you hae no plroblem with Rev. 1:1, and while I know that "soon" can be interpreted by believers as in terms of God's time, the fact remans that John of Patmos is speaking to his fellow mortals. Thus "soon" would have to refer to a human, not divine, interpretation of time. If this verse stood alone perhaps it wouldn't be that meaningful. However, Jesus repeatedly says in the gospels that the end is near, within his own generation, as does Paul. How is it that this isn't a problem for you?

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, which people of Hal Lindsey's ilk have been equating to everything from VISA cards to bar codes, the last time I checked (just yesterday, in fact) I could still get groceries with cash. So far, there is absolutely no substance to the assertions that any government is going to forcibly insert silicon chips under our skin or stamp bar codes on our foreheads.

Also, so far, you've yet give one shred of testable evidence for the existence of demons, angels and spiritual warfare. Your assertion that unbelievers are somehow not able to detect demons is, of course, self-serving and can neither be verified or falsified by any objective test.

 

[joobz]

The HolySpirit is the one that reveals the truth to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, He is the one that helps us discern the lies from the truth.

I was told that your holy spirit is actually satan telling you lies.

 

[Moochie]

<snipped for God's sake>


All I can say if it gets to the point where we cannot even get groceries without a special mark to go to the store and get food I will refuse it.

That'd be the veritable credit card, I say unto you.

(ETA: I see that TimCallahan hath beateth me unto it.)


M.

 

[six7s]

All I can say if it gets to the point where we cannot even get groceries without a special mark to go to the store and get food I will refuse it.

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, which people of Hal Lindsey's ilk have been equating to everything from VISA cards to bar codes, the last time I checked (just yesterday, in fact) I could still get groceries with cash. So far, there is absolutely no substance to the assertions that any government is going to forcibly insert silicon chips under our skin or stamp bar codes on our foreheads.

Don't leave home without it​

 

[Paulhoff]

The HolySpirit is the one that reveals the truth to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, He is the one that helps us discern the lies from the truth.

I tell you the truth, you do not know what you are missing outside of Christ! Why walk in darkness when the light is so much better?

You don't believe in evolution, so you don't know lies from truth then.

How old is the earth, sun, universe KK?

The so-called HolySpirit reveals only what you want to tell yourself, and all you want are lies, too bad.

Paul

 

[kurious_kathy]

As to the interpretation of "buffeting," you were the one who said that a demon buffeting Paul was the SPECIFIC nature of his thorn in the flesh. If you say this was what "thorn in the flesh" specifically refers to, that implies a specific, rather than a general, interpretation of the word "butffet." As I recall, you said this in response to my assertion that nobody knows specifically what was the nature of Paul's thorn in the flesh.

While I shouldn't be srprised that you hae no plroblem with Rev. 1:1, and while I know that "soon" can be interpreted by believers as in terms of God's time, the fact remans that John of Patmos is speaking to his fellow mortals. Thus "soon" would have to refer to a human, not divine, interpretation of time. If this verse stood alone perhaps it wouldn't be that meaningful. However, Jesus repeatedly says in the gospels that the end is near, within his own generation, as does Paul. How is it that this isn't a problem for you?

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, which people of Hal Lindsey's ilk have been equating to everything from VISA cards to bar codes, the last time I checked (just yesterday, in fact) I could still get groceries with cash. So far, there is absolutely no substance to the assertions that any government is going to forcibly insert silicon chips under our skin or stamp bar codes on our foreheads.

Also, so far, you've yet give one shred of testable evidence for the existence of demons, angels and spiritual warfare. Your assertion that unbelievers are somehow not able to detect demons is, of course, self-serving and can neither be verified or falsified by any objective test.

What about the fact that I am in agreement with the hookers testimony? I do not know this girl but I know what she is sharing is true because my experience was similar when the Lord intervened to save me. Jesus does turn peoples lives around and it's because of God's grace working in our lives. I don't even knowthat girl but I know Jesus saved her and got her away from the ungodly life she was living, as he has done for me and many others. A changed life is evidence but you guys just don't want to acknowledge God at all. And if you could acknowledge God is real then you would know Satan and his demons are too.

 

[six7s]

What about the fact that I am in agreement with the hookers testimony?

That was predictable; although she didn't say much at all, she said nothing that ruffles the feathers of your delusion

 

[TimCallahan]

What about the fact that I am in agreement with the hookers testimony? I do not know this girl but I know what she is sharing is true because my experience was similar when the Lord intervened to save me. Jesus does turn peoples lives around and it's because of God's grace working in our lives. I don't even knowthat girl but I know Jesus saved her and got her away from the ungodly life she was living, as he has done for me and many others. A changed life is evidence but you guys just don't want to acknowledge God at all. And if you could acknowledge God is real then you would know Satan and his demons are too.

I already pointed out that the commonality of experience could be neurological. What would you say about the commonality of near-death experiences? The whole going through a dark tunnel and coming out into the light thing is highly touted by New Agers. However, I'm sure you would be inclined to dismiss the validity of that experience, or would relegate it to the level of satanic deception, just as I relegate it to brain chemistry. I could just as easily relegate your shared experience with that of the ex-hooker to the category of a common delusion with its roots in neurolological symptoms.

As to a changed life as evidence, let me point out that converts to Islam also experience a changed life, as do people who have undergone psychotherapy. People in 12-step programs also experience a changed life, regardless of whether their "higher power" is Christian, something "New Agy" or simply an abstract principle.

Can you come up with something that can be tested? Also, can you answer the points I made concerning "buffeting" and the failure of the world to end in the generation of Jesus, as predicted by Jesus himself, according to the gospels?

 

[joobz]

What about the fact that I am in agreement with the hookers testimony?

What about the fact that I am in agreement with Feyman's testimony? I get excited about not knowing. That I hate pretending to know simply as a way of avoiding uncertainty. I gained a peace of mind when I was able to adopt a more consistent and logical world view. A world view that was not provided by christianity because of it's inherent illogical contradictions.

Will you claim that my testimony doesn't count or is less valuable than your's or the woman in the video?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Jesus does turn peoples lives around and it's because of God's grace working in our lives.

Or did those people turn their own lives around? I can now only assume that you willfully ignore the fact that people all over the world have the same sort of experiences yet attribute them to many different gods. This suggests that it is not the gods who are intervening, but the people themselves.

I don't even knowthat girl but I know Jesus saved her and got her away from the ungodly life she was living, as he has done for me and many others.

So, when someone turns from a self-destructive or abusive pattern of behavior due to the influence of Islam or Hinduism should we not accept those testimonies as being just as valid as yours?

A changed life is evidence but you guys just don't want to acknowledge God at all.

Unless it's a life changed by Islam, Mehr Baba, Humanism etc. Then you choose to ignore it as evidence.

And if you could acknowledge God is real then you would know Satan and his demons are too.

And if I just choose to believe in Santa Clause then I'll believe in toy-making elves and flying reindeer too.

 

[pgwenthold]

Or did those people turn their own lives around? I can now only assume that you willfully ignore the fact that people all over the world have the same sort of experiences yet attribute them to many different gods. This suggests that it is not the gods who are intervening, but the people themselves.

There's actually an important implication of Kathy's comment that she refuses to acknowledge. If people have turned their lives around because of "God's grace working on their lives," what does that say about people who HAVEN'T turned their lives around? Like me, for example. Either God's grace is not working on me, which makes you wonder about how good God's grace is, or that God isn't sending his grace my way.

If God can use his grace to turn other people's lives around, why doesn't he do it for me? Note, she can't use the "free will" excuse, because she has already admitted that God is able to change other lives. Thus, I conclude that it would have to be because God doesn't want me to change.

So Kathy, why are you trying to defy God's will?

 

[Foster Zygote]

There's actually an important implication of Kathy's comment that she refuses to acknowledge. If people have turned their lives around because of "God's grace working on their lives," what does that say about people who HAVEN'T turned their lives around? Like me, for example. Either God's grace is not working on me, which makes you wonder about how good God's grace is, or that God isn't sending his grace my way.

If God can use his grace to turn other people's lives around, why doesn't he do it for me? Note, she can't use the "free will" excuse, because she has already admitted that God is able to change other lives. Thus, I conclude that it would have to be because God doesn't want me to change.

So Kathy, why are you trying to defy God's will?

Joshua 11:20
"For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses."

God took away their free will, putting in their minds the desire to wage war against Israel, because if they'd sought peace then he wouldn't have an easy excuse to commit genocide.

 

[Sun Countess]

Beware if you're waiting for the 7th Potter movie and haven't bothered with the books: SPOILERS ahead:

I cried when Hedwig died in the 7th book. I cried when Dobby died. I felt like a wimp, but I looked around the internetz and saw that I wasn't alone in crying for fictional non-human characters. We shared an experience. I absolutely believe that these other people cried just as surely as I did. Over a work of fiction. It can happen.

The feelings were real, but the experiences that precipitated them were pure fiction.

And I daresay that there are plenty of other known works of fiction that have changed people's lives for the better. So the bible isn't really unique in that regard either.

 

[bobcarp]

The HolySpirit is the one that reveals the truth to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, He is the one that helps us discern the lies from the truth.

I tell you the truth, you do not know what you are missing outside of Christ! Why walk in darkness when the light is so much better?

And why provide proof when speaking with rhetoric is so much easier....