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The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems
- Thread starter Christian Dude
- Start date
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
- Joined
- May 3, 2007
- Messages
- 2,979
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
The "Witless Witness" of Christian Dude and Kurious Kathy should have ended on day one. They came here under a false pretense, they have lied continually during their time here, and they have demonstrated monumental contempt not only for the Atheists/Agnostic/Skeptics/Believers here, but for those they purport to represent. They have continually demonstrated the lowest form of Christian Evangelism, a perpetual, sustained bleat which is supposed to be a declaration of the Savior's love, but is not based upon anything more factual than their own annoyance that we aren't succumbing to their devout "wit."
When Kathy spews her bilge about how much she loves us, I have to remember everything else she's had to say to and about people here on this board. Her "witness," such as it is, is filtered through the willful ignorance of what she's been told by others, and by her deceit and outright lies about what she would and would not do. I find it questionable that she was ever a victim of sexual abuse, because those I know who have been through it are nowhere near as "forgiving" as she is, especially when the individuals involved were supposed to be trusted and trustworthy. Been there, done that, got over it and quit mutilating myself over it.
The problem isn't that this doesn't happen, or even that there's no god, but rather that Christian Dude and Kurious Kathy have approached this with all the courtesy of a process server, and they are continuing their "witness" in spite of the evidence that many of the atheists here, myself included, are former Christians. We stopped with our own "witness," examined the facts, recognized that we didn't have actual evidence but anecdote, and we moved on. We left, because we recognized that we'd been lied to, and realized that the lies would not stop simply because we asked for evidence. The whole culture of deception was far too ingrained.
I know the lies. I used them myself. I repeated them to myself time and again, as ordered, until I realized that mere repetition does not make something a fact. It simply becomes a chant, and it becomes a substitute for thought. It does not make it true. And this, sadly, is what Christian Dude wants to ignore as he posts spam, gleaned from the Bible, hoping that we'll ignore our own pasts and return to the herd, or flock, if you will. We're supposed to follow along like cattle, or sheep, along the same, well-worn paths.
The problem for me is that I used to haul meat scrap from a lamb processor. And I saw what happened to the sheep that were brought in there; they'd follow a bell lamb up through the plant, through the carefully constructed pens, and the further along they went, the deeper into the plant they traveled, the closer they came to being trapped and turned into Sunday dinner.
The final stage was a very tight area, where they would funnel through the railing to a ramp. They'd take one or two steps until the conveyor system caught them. From there, they'd be ratcheted up the ramp, their feet not touching the ground, until they hit the very top. At the top was a guy with what looked like some weird sci-fi weapon. Salt water would drizzle down the back of the lamb's neck, the employee of the plant would take the gun, and two probes would hit the back of the lamb's neck. He'd hit the trigger, and aided by the salt water, that lamb's brain would be scrambled with an electric shock. It would destroy the brain, but the lamb's heart would still be beating. A split second later, the lamb would slide down a stainless steel ramp to another conveyor, and its throat would be sliced open. Once it was bled out, it was hung on gambrels, gutted, and processed.
And as I read of Jesus calling us his "flock," I'm reminded of how the flock is treated. Fleeced? Hell, that's easy. But to willingly go forward, to have your life drained from you, to be nothing more than meat for the table, as evidenced by the constant wailing by televangelists and local pastors for tithes and offerings, was just too much to take.
I used to listen to Bob Larson as he would demand money, money which he said I owed the Church, just so he could save a station, and save people's souls. Not once did anyone like Bob Larson step forward asking for money so they could help the victims of Hurricane Katrina, or the victims of the Tsunami in the southern Pacific. I used to listen to our pastor at Roseville 1st Church of the Nazarene, as Stewardship Sunday came, as he would tell us how our tithes would help to save our community, only to watch him run out people I respected and appreciated, people who supported me when I needed help, and in turn go out and buy a Harley Davidson - full dress - because God wanted him to witness to motorcycle riders.
I know the lies. I know them well. I have seen them for over 25 years. I used them. I don't anymore. I recognize that if I want to change things, I need to change myself, and so I don't accept the lies anymore.
Nor do I continue to support the liars themselves, particularly when I've taken the time to point out the lies told, and joined with others who have pointed out those lies. And when the liars try to tell me the lies don't really matter, regardless of their severity, I know I'm dealing with people for whom the truth does not matter. Why would I waste my time, except to put out a warning to others that they are being lied to? This is the kind of hateful spew that I wanted to get away from, so why would I stay silent and allow it to continue, to ensnare another person? I think I have a greater responsibility than that.
Let me offer this comparison for you. Peggy's oldest and dearest friend is Jean. She's a grandmother, and a Christian woman. (I don't think Jean recognizes that she's becoming a Skeptic, though. With time.)
I got back from running some legal errands today, and since my hands were full, I gave the screen door a kick, and yelled, "DOOR!"
"Very good!" Jean answered as Matt's friend CJ unlocked and opened the front door. "Tomorrow, we'll work on WINDOW!"
I love Jean.
Jean is funny. She's clever, compassionate. I think she and Kittynh would get along great. I lost a lot of respect for her husband when I found out that Jean hadn't shown proper "deference" to him, and he'd grabbed her hair and dragged her through the house. But she's a tougher woman than I'd have given her credit for. She's my friend.
Jean's learned about Ducky, and she prays for him. She'd rather donate blood, or bone marrow, or even a few bucks, but she's broke, and she isn't allowed to donate bone marrow or blood. So, she does what she can, encouraging people to help any way they can. She makes clothes with Peggy. I think if it were possible, they'd make clothes for Ducky, something comfortable, so his trips to the doctors weren't quite so bad.
Jean isn't a Kurious Kathy or Christian Dude kind of Christian. She's the real deal. Young Earth Creationist? Yeah. But questioning that of late. She's simply looking for ways she can serve other people. To Jean, that's her True Religion. She doesn't have time to go around bleating about how soon it is to the Second Coming. If Jesus were to return right now, he'd probably find Jean cooking, cleaning, or trying to help people in the local community. Jean's too busy working to waste her time worrying about the end of the world.
Jean's daughters, Kari and Jo, don't waste their time with Church anymore, which is a strong indication that Jean is becoming a Skeptic. They wouldn't have walked away if their dad had any say in the matter. But in their cases, Jean had the greater say. When Jo got married, it was a civil ceremony. Her dad wasn't happy, but he'd pretty much lost all say in this.
Jean is the kind of woman that Kurious Kathy ought to be looking to, but she's too busy running off at the mouth to notice that. And that's too bad, because Jean deserves a great deal of respect, as do Kittynh, MLynn, and so many others.
It's not just Christians, either. History Gal introduced me to a friend of hers who's offering help to me at no cost, and out of the goodness of her very generous heart. She's Jewish, from New York, and probably one of the sweetest people I've ever spoken with. I can't wait to meet her, just to tell her. I can respect this woman, simply on the basis of who she is as a person. I don't have to ask what she believes; she lives it, and presents it in what she does. She's been more honest with me than the (Christian) people I've been paying to be honest with me. Care to offer a counter to that? If I had to choose, would I rather save lying Christians or honest Jews?
Do you really have to ask?
I will not sit by idly and allow people to lie. I can't. And when it's all said and done, if there's any atonement necessary, it's something I owe for lies told, whether in ignorance or otherwise.
Christian Dude and Kurious Kathy have been shown repeatedly that they are liars, and rather than accepting responsibility for their actions, they have blown them off, and blown off people who have called them on their lies. They have not provided an honest witness for what they believe, but rather shown that it's more important they perpetuate their bleat in Jesus name, regardless of whether there's any truth to it or not. They have shown complete disrespect for the men and women who have tried time and again to demonstrate they are in error, and as a result, have earned the enmity of nearly anyone who has read what they have to say, especially those who should have been their allies. If their witness here is at an end, I'm grateful for it, because it ends the disgrace to the honest, stalwart, and courageous Christians I have come to know over the years. I can only hope that when it's all said and done, the members of the Calvary Chapel in Sonora will read this and recognize just how disgraceful these two have been over the years and will simply ask them to stay silent until they can act in a manner that represents a credit to their local community, rather than a disgrace.
It's either that, or they could move to Fiji. I hear Reverend Baker is waiting for them.
Good riddance to the both of them.
When Kathy spews her bilge about how much she loves us, I have to remember everything else she's had to say to and about people here on this board. Her "witness," such as it is, is filtered through the willful ignorance of what she's been told by others, and by her deceit and outright lies about what she would and would not do. I find it questionable that she was ever a victim of sexual abuse, because those I know who have been through it are nowhere near as "forgiving" as she is, especially when the individuals involved were supposed to be trusted and trustworthy. Been there, done that, got over it and quit mutilating myself over it.
The problem isn't that this doesn't happen, or even that there's no god, but rather that Christian Dude and Kurious Kathy have approached this with all the courtesy of a process server, and they are continuing their "witness" in spite of the evidence that many of the atheists here, myself included, are former Christians. We stopped with our own "witness," examined the facts, recognized that we didn't have actual evidence but anecdote, and we moved on. We left, because we recognized that we'd been lied to, and realized that the lies would not stop simply because we asked for evidence. The whole culture of deception was far too ingrained.
I know the lies. I used them myself. I repeated them to myself time and again, as ordered, until I realized that mere repetition does not make something a fact. It simply becomes a chant, and it becomes a substitute for thought. It does not make it true. And this, sadly, is what Christian Dude wants to ignore as he posts spam, gleaned from the Bible, hoping that we'll ignore our own pasts and return to the herd, or flock, if you will. We're supposed to follow along like cattle, or sheep, along the same, well-worn paths.
The problem for me is that I used to haul meat scrap from a lamb processor. And I saw what happened to the sheep that were brought in there; they'd follow a bell lamb up through the plant, through the carefully constructed pens, and the further along they went, the deeper into the plant they traveled, the closer they came to being trapped and turned into Sunday dinner.
The final stage was a very tight area, where they would funnel through the railing to a ramp. They'd take one or two steps until the conveyor system caught them. From there, they'd be ratcheted up the ramp, their feet not touching the ground, until they hit the very top. At the top was a guy with what looked like some weird sci-fi weapon. Salt water would drizzle down the back of the lamb's neck, the employee of the plant would take the gun, and two probes would hit the back of the lamb's neck. He'd hit the trigger, and aided by the salt water, that lamb's brain would be scrambled with an electric shock. It would destroy the brain, but the lamb's heart would still be beating. A split second later, the lamb would slide down a stainless steel ramp to another conveyor, and its throat would be sliced open. Once it was bled out, it was hung on gambrels, gutted, and processed.
And as I read of Jesus calling us his "flock," I'm reminded of how the flock is treated. Fleeced? Hell, that's easy. But to willingly go forward, to have your life drained from you, to be nothing more than meat for the table, as evidenced by the constant wailing by televangelists and local pastors for tithes and offerings, was just too much to take.
I used to listen to Bob Larson as he would demand money, money which he said I owed the Church, just so he could save a station, and save people's souls. Not once did anyone like Bob Larson step forward asking for money so they could help the victims of Hurricane Katrina, or the victims of the Tsunami in the southern Pacific. I used to listen to our pastor at Roseville 1st Church of the Nazarene, as Stewardship Sunday came, as he would tell us how our tithes would help to save our community, only to watch him run out people I respected and appreciated, people who supported me when I needed help, and in turn go out and buy a Harley Davidson - full dress - because God wanted him to witness to motorcycle riders.
I know the lies. I know them well. I have seen them for over 25 years. I used them. I don't anymore. I recognize that if I want to change things, I need to change myself, and so I don't accept the lies anymore.
Nor do I continue to support the liars themselves, particularly when I've taken the time to point out the lies told, and joined with others who have pointed out those lies. And when the liars try to tell me the lies don't really matter, regardless of their severity, I know I'm dealing with people for whom the truth does not matter. Why would I waste my time, except to put out a warning to others that they are being lied to? This is the kind of hateful spew that I wanted to get away from, so why would I stay silent and allow it to continue, to ensnare another person? I think I have a greater responsibility than that.
Let me offer this comparison for you. Peggy's oldest and dearest friend is Jean. She's a grandmother, and a Christian woman. (I don't think Jean recognizes that she's becoming a Skeptic, though. With time.)
I got back from running some legal errands today, and since my hands were full, I gave the screen door a kick, and yelled, "DOOR!"
"Very good!" Jean answered as Matt's friend CJ unlocked and opened the front door. "Tomorrow, we'll work on WINDOW!"
I love Jean.
Jean is funny. She's clever, compassionate. I think she and Kittynh would get along great. I lost a lot of respect for her husband when I found out that Jean hadn't shown proper "deference" to him, and he'd grabbed her hair and dragged her through the house. But she's a tougher woman than I'd have given her credit for. She's my friend.
Jean's learned about Ducky, and she prays for him. She'd rather donate blood, or bone marrow, or even a few bucks, but she's broke, and she isn't allowed to donate bone marrow or blood. So, she does what she can, encouraging people to help any way they can. She makes clothes with Peggy. I think if it were possible, they'd make clothes for Ducky, something comfortable, so his trips to the doctors weren't quite so bad.
Jean isn't a Kurious Kathy or Christian Dude kind of Christian. She's the real deal. Young Earth Creationist? Yeah. But questioning that of late. She's simply looking for ways she can serve other people. To Jean, that's her True Religion. She doesn't have time to go around bleating about how soon it is to the Second Coming. If Jesus were to return right now, he'd probably find Jean cooking, cleaning, or trying to help people in the local community. Jean's too busy working to waste her time worrying about the end of the world.
Jean's daughters, Kari and Jo, don't waste their time with Church anymore, which is a strong indication that Jean is becoming a Skeptic. They wouldn't have walked away if their dad had any say in the matter. But in their cases, Jean had the greater say. When Jo got married, it was a civil ceremony. Her dad wasn't happy, but he'd pretty much lost all say in this.
Jean is the kind of woman that Kurious Kathy ought to be looking to, but she's too busy running off at the mouth to notice that. And that's too bad, because Jean deserves a great deal of respect, as do Kittynh, MLynn, and so many others.
It's not just Christians, either. History Gal introduced me to a friend of hers who's offering help to me at no cost, and out of the goodness of her very generous heart. She's Jewish, from New York, and probably one of the sweetest people I've ever spoken with. I can't wait to meet her, just to tell her. I can respect this woman, simply on the basis of who she is as a person. I don't have to ask what she believes; she lives it, and presents it in what she does. She's been more honest with me than the (Christian) people I've been paying to be honest with me. Care to offer a counter to that? If I had to choose, would I rather save lying Christians or honest Jews?
Do you really have to ask?
I will not sit by idly and allow people to lie. I can't. And when it's all said and done, if there's any atonement necessary, it's something I owe for lies told, whether in ignorance or otherwise.
Christian Dude and Kurious Kathy have been shown repeatedly that they are liars, and rather than accepting responsibility for their actions, they have blown them off, and blown off people who have called them on their lies. They have not provided an honest witness for what they believe, but rather shown that it's more important they perpetuate their bleat in Jesus name, regardless of whether there's any truth to it or not. They have shown complete disrespect for the men and women who have tried time and again to demonstrate they are in error, and as a result, have earned the enmity of nearly anyone who has read what they have to say, especially those who should have been their allies. If their witness here is at an end, I'm grateful for it, because it ends the disgrace to the honest, stalwart, and courageous Christians I have come to know over the years. I can only hope that when it's all said and done, the members of the Calvary Chapel in Sonora will read this and recognize just how disgraceful these two have been over the years and will simply ask them to stay silent until they can act in a manner that represents a credit to their local community, rather than a disgrace.
It's either that, or they could move to Fiji. I hear Reverend Baker is waiting for them.
Good riddance to the both of them.
joobz
Tergiversator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2006
- Messages
- 17,998
Don't make me epistle whip you!Perhaps it's better than being epistled on.
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
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- 2,979
Whip that epistle, whip it good. (For some reason all I could think of was Devo).
Nogbad
Master Poster
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Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Christian Dude said they were done.
Given their record, I'm guessing I was hopeful.
Given their record, I'm guessing I was hopeful.
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
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RT. You and Jean are the salt of the earth! The generous nature you both exude is what inspires people to become involved. You are an inspiration to Me and i thoroughly enjoy reading your posts.
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
- Joined
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- Messages
- 2,979
Are you experienced?
So, have they left or was Roadtoad just hopeful?
That depends.
I'm not so sure they are done. Just when you think they are.....
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
That depends.
I'm not so sure they are done. Just when you think they are.....
They're like a bad case of herpes. They keep coming back.
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
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They may remain in that ignorant, altered state the rest of their lives, but I won't refrain from pointing out their ignorance.
Marcus
Illuminator
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I can just imagine their conversations with their buddies, recounting their adventures witnessing to the evil atheists. Laughing at our outrageous beliefs, like thinking that the earth is more than 6,000 years old, or that the bible contains contradictions. Somehow I think they will forget to mention that half the people here know the bible better than they do.
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
You'll notice that most of us refrained from quoting scripture to them. It's bad enough to see them misuse it, but to give them further ammo was adding insult to injury.
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
six7s
veretic
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Messages
- 8,716
Putting Out Fire With Gasoline, huh?
Miaow!
If nothing else, this forum is prompting me to rediscover some great music
supercorgi
Dog Everlasting
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- Aug 3, 2004
- Messages
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Mr Clingford, I respect you because you're a Christian that thinks. The Methodist and Episcopal churches are willing to change with the times and not be dogmatic. The culture of today is not the culture of 2000 years ago. Things have changed drastically and I respect religions that accept that change.
Massachusetts is the first state to recognize gay unions. My nephew and his devoted partner (together for over 5 years and devoted to each other) live in NY, which hasn't yet recognized the need for people to cleave to each other and have some official recognition of their devotion. I hope they do soon. I think it's awful to deny the rights allowed to some to be denied to other because they are "different." I hope that changes soon throughout this country.
Judging other because of a prejudicial book written 2000 years ago is just not right. Times change, cultures change, our view of things change. CD's dogmatic acceptance of every thing in the Bible just shows his inflexibility and his inability to accept that the world of today is not the world of 2000 years ago. I'm scared of him (because he would condemn whole nations to hell), and yet, strangely I pity him.
supercorgi
Dog Everlasting
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I believe that people and the world are basically good. Yes there are people who do evil but a lot of them are inspired to so because of ideology and religion. The notion that they are right and every one else are wrong. Yes there are exceptions to this, murderers, thieves, people who prey one the innocent, and they're mostly motivated by greed. But the worse atrocities in history are motivated by ideology (including religion) because it fosters an "us vs. them" view point. Anyone who isn't like you, who believes different stuff than you do, are "evil" and must be exteminated because they're a threat to your world view and what you believe.
I have a degree in anthropology, I've studied comparative religions. To me it is extreme hubris to declare that your way is the only true way. And isn't excessive pride and being judgmental a sin in Christianity? People are incredibly diverse, cultures are incredibly diverse - isn't it stupid and judgmental to consider your view the only true view? I pity people who are so close minded that they cannot appreciate and wonder at the good in this world and the amazing diversity in this world. We're all human although we may have different beliefs. Celebrate mankind, don't condemn people because they're not like you. Learn to appreciate them because they are like you - they want to do good, they love their families, they want to survive, and if they can, they want to contribute to the societies they live in.
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
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Well, when someone states that the Bible is a love story it's hard not to bring up something like Revelation 2:23.
supercorgi
Dog Everlasting
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Hey, if it's not David Bowie's rendition from "Cat People" it ain't nothing.
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supercorgi
Dog Everlasting
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Not that you'll respond to this, but please present:
- The names and academic credentials of biologists that accept creationism.
- The names and academic credentials of geologists who accept the young earth theory of creation.
- The names and acedemic credentials of astrophysics that support the biblical account of the creation of earth.
Most of the "scientists" that the Institute for Creation Research tout have degrees in areas completely unrelated to the hard science that supports evolution and the formation of the earth. And I bet that any that those that they do tout, got their degrees from diploma mills or "Christian" Universities (usually uncredited).
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