The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems

[tsig]

Although I have only made a few post recently, I have posted reasonably large posts and supplied answers on who the scientists are that have evidence for a young earth and creationist interpretation of the very same facts we all have to work with. It appears that all here would rather believe that these scientists, with PhDs and Masters degrees from the very same universities as scientists that believe in evolution both in a cosmological sense and biological sense, are all liars, ignoramuses or both. I can answer over and over again questions on contradictions in the bible, I can supply names of creation and ID scientists for people to look up, I can present the main points of creation and ID science, but what I have learned is that none of that is new stuff for anyone here. You all know the points and the people and have already made your decisions. OK, I accept that. I also have made my decision for Jesus and the Bible being true and correct in all that it discusses. I freely admit I will never change my mind on this for many of the reasons I have already stated.

I have not delved very deeply into the fallacies of other religions. I see no real point now since my argument that Christianity and science are not in contradiction is not remotely accepted here. To show that Christianity and science are in agreement is also an excellent way to show how other religions are false since they have obvious factual errors when they touch on scientific matters. Here at JREF, Christianity is also seen that way, and no one concedes the I have any valid points at all, so I have no foundation to move on from in the discussion.

I have also touched on some of the difficult doctrines of Christianity regarding the true nature of humankind. I completely understand that many people do not see a loving merciful gracious God in scripture, especially in the Old Testament. I am personally convinced this is because they do not correctly understand the full scope of what is going on in the particular instances that seem harsh and cruel. All I can do is present, to the best of my ability, logical rational answers as to what is really going on in some of the difficult situations and passages in the Bible that deal with issues that many find cruel and immoral by God. For example, many people have brought up the misconception that God condones slavery. This is a misunderstanding and application of the modern and western definition of slavery. A Hebrew bondservant is not at all like what we consider a slave in a modern sense. A Hebrew bondservant was protected by law and to be treated very well by their master. A simple study on this issue in ancient Hebrew language and culture will shed a whole new light on the subject.

So, at this point, this is what I would like anyone who reads my posts to understand:

Jesus in not your enemy, Christianity is not your enemy, nor are true Christians you enemy in any way. True Christians are not violent or hostile toward anyone of any belief system. A true Christian will vehemently oppose the philosophy and doctrines of all other belief systems, it is important to do so because of the doctrine of salvation, but we are commanded by Jesus to love the people of all belief systems. All a true Christian can do is verbally pronounce the philosophies and doctrines of other belief systems false. That’s it, nothing more. We are required and commanded to love and care for the people of those opposing belief systems. If a Christian goes any further than verbal opposition to another religion or belief system, they have gone too far and are very possibly a counterfeit. I will be side by side with you denouncing anyone, whether they call them selves a Christian or not, if they try to take away your free will to decide for your self what you believe.

In Luke 6:27 we have the essence of how a true Christian is to relate to people of any other belief system, "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. 32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."

If someone says they are a Christian and they do not treat you as Jesus told us to above, dismiss them as a true Christian and categorize them as counterfeits. You do notice it does not say to not contend with people of other belief systems about their beliefs. That would also go against what Jesus has commanded His disciples to do. Jesus told us in Matthew 28:19-20 to “19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” The key is that Jesus told us to teach people to observe (follow) all the things Jesus taught. He said He was the one and only way to get to Heaven. In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” So a true Christian must tell you about Jesus, and that He is the only way you will ever get to see Heaven. But that is all a true Christian can do, is tell you. We can’t try anything to force you to believe this or do anything to punish you because you don’t. Unfortunately there have been plenty of counterfeit Christians who have done, and still do, horrible things to people in the name of Christ. That is not real and true Christianity nor does Jesus have anything to do with it.

You might ask, “why does Jesus then allow all the terrible things that have been done in His name to happen? If He is really God, why doesn’t He stop that garbage?” For the very same reason a true Christian can’t do any more than just tell you about Jesus; He will not override your free will to choose what you believe for your self. If Jesus was to instantly destroy every person that sinned, people would submit to Him out of fear, not because of love and by free will.

You may like what the New Testament teaches, and have real problems with the Old Testament, and can’t understand how Christians reconcile the two. I believe why most people see the God of the Old Testament as a blood thirsty immoral being is because they are focused on His judging a nation or people and have an emotional sentimental response to His judging people, and, they do not understand human nature is bad not good. In Exodus 34:6-7 God describes His character to us in His own words, “6 And the LORD passed before him (Moses) and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation." God chooses first to offer His mercy and grace to us before He ever judges us. He does not want to judge us. He only does it when we force Him to by rejecting Him and reconciliation through the salvation provided to us by Jesus. In Ezekiel 33:11 God says, “Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” What you must understand about God in the Old Testament is that He never judges anyone until He has suffered their rebellion and sin against Him for a Long time. He does not want to judge anyone, He only does so when there is no hope of repentance and salvation for a person or nation.

Then we always get to the kids. Why did God have to judge the kids along with the adults? You know, I don’t know in 100% certainty. Scripture does not clearly and plainly state why. All we can do is make some deductions as to what might be going on. Here is my best personal answer. I believe, because I know the nature of God through so many scriptures, as some provided above, and personal experience of His nature in my and others lives, there is mercy contained in His judgment somehow when kids are caught in it. One thought I have is that the kids, being to young to know right from wrong, are taken to Heaven and live with God there for the rest of eternity. If they were left to grow up in the vile, murderous and utterly corrupt cultures they were living in, they would have been lost to Him. Because I know the nature of God, He could judge the nation and save the kids, He just might do something like that. When you think of things in an eternal perspective like God does, it does not matter, in the much larger scope of eternity, that a life here on earth might have been relatively short compared to the average earthly life. I state once again, God never judges anyone unless there is no hope for them and He is forced to judge them because He is the perfect, holy, sinless, creator God that is also the righteous judge, and cannot let sin go unpunished. Yes all sin is judged and punished. Either a person’s sin was placed on Jesus, and He bore the punishment for it, or the person still has their sin and they have to bear the punishment.

If you don’t agree with a single thing I have said, that is fine, I won’t hate you and will still care about you. All I can do is communicate the truth God has revealed to us in scripture. That is it, I can not go any further and must respect your right to choose what you believe for your self. But why myself, Kathy and some other Christians are here at JREF is because our Lord Jesus Christ commands us to care about you, and warn you about your dire situation outside of Christ’s salvation. He is also teaching us how to love you, almost perfect strangers, we only know through the cold and sterile textile environment of an online forum. I don’t want to win arguments, or win debates, or to be right. I only want to do as my Lord commands and care for you in the best way I can in an online forum and tell you that you are loved, loved so very deeply, by the one who created you and desperately wants to be reconciled back to you. I will leave it at that for now.

Your friend,
CD

deleted

 

[six7s]

You are being very arrogant and rude.

Thank you

I am not trying to patronise you, but have a discussion.

Good

You have no idea about the depth and breadth of my life, education and knowledge.

True... you could drop clues instead of being all 'holier than thou'

You have no excuse to be rude and call my posts feeble.

I don't need an excuse

Your posts are feeble

Become a bridge and get over yourself

It seems I made a mistake by not adding 'within the Xtian mythos' to my sentence - I had assumed it was not necessary.

Ass u me

 

[Nogbad]

CD

Your post is, it seems to me, to be in two parts. One is your dismay regarding our views on the material at AnswersinGenesis etc., which, as you rightly point out, we are familiar with. I did mention way back on page one that YEC had been done to death. Indeed some of the stuff that you brought up, such as the chap with the decaying speed of light (I forget his name) is struggling to keep his place in sites like AnswersinGenesis such are the question marks over his methodology.

A number of the writers you quote may indeed have Masters and Doctorates as indeed many of us here do. However, I would be chary of trying to sound authoritative outside my own discipline. Quite a few of the authors you have introduced are rather more gung ho about stepping outside their field of expertise. To a sceptic it rather looks like they have started with an a priori position and worked backwards.

It was, you say, your intention to tackle other faiths on the basis that they fall down on science whereas the Bible does not. Apart from Islam, which also has a "look at the science in our book" approach, I am not sure all that many other religions view their texts as anything other than philosophical. It was the philosophical arguments that I though might be interesting. You touch on this in the second part of your post where you set out the Christian position on dialogue. I don't have an issue with this and of course the Great Commission is a given and we clearly understand why you are here.

It is most unlikely that you or KK will concede your position nor we ours. However, that does not mean that the discussion is pointless and the comparative religion thing would be interesting with a Christian perspective included. You could continue with the YEC theme but a lot of the material has already been presented by Radrook, DOC and others; notably the chap who was keen on Big Foot whose name has slipped my mind, who could fill a post with a hundred weird and wonderful links.

 

[Mr Clingford]

You wrote that I had been 'holier than thou'. That was not my intention and I really don't see how I was - you will have to explain this. Furthermore, how is what I have said feeble? If it is because I didn't explain my quotation, then fair enough, but you did not do so either.

I agree that my understanding of homosexuality, for instance, is not compatible with a literal reading of the Old Testament and certain interpretations of the NT, but Xtianity has always been about reinterpretation (what the Messiah would be like and how Jesus interpreted the Mosaic Law (cf Mat 5:38-39), for instances). If it could be proved that Jesus hated homosexuals then I would seriously consider not being a Xtian.

 

[six7s]

You wrote that I had been 'holier than thou'. That was not my intention and I really don't see how I was - you will have to explain this. Furthermore, how is what I have said feeble? If it is because I didn't explain my quotation, then fair enough, but you did not do so either.

I agree that my understanding of homosexuality, for instance, is not compatible with a literal reading of the Old Testament and certain interpretations of the NT, but Xtianity has always been about reinterpretation (what the Messiah would be like and how Jesus interpreted the Mosaic Law (cf Mat 5:38-39), for instances). If it could be proved that Jesus hated homosexuals then I would seriously consider not being a Xtian.

You are obviously a sincere and articulate person

I sincerely apologise for being an arse

However, I stand by my 'feeble' claim, simply (i.e. uncomplicatedly) because I regard your stance as being inconsistent with both reality and scripture

I look forward to reading more of your posts

Pax

 

[Mr Clingford]

Your 'Have you actually got an argument to make?' question is absurd in light of your feeble attempts to reconcile your faith with reality via cherry picking

This very strongly irks me because of its presumption. I am very well aware that I may be wrong and it underpins my whole interpretive framework of life. You also mock my sincere attempts to make sense of this world, something that I don't think anyone should do, especially as I am hardly attempting to foist them on others. Again you are yourself making massive assumptions and I seem to be in an irritable mood this morning!

This was posted before I read your above post, but I appreciate your sentiment, thank you. If I offend in this post's offering then tell me and I am sure we can make things clear.

 

[six7s]

I seem to be in an irritable mood this morning!

As one living 12 hours in your future, I can assure you that the day gets better

 

[H'ethetheth]

Then we always get to the kids. Why did God have to judge the kids along with the adults? You know, I don’t know in 100% certainty. Scripture does not clearly and plainly state why. All we can do is make some deductions as to what might be going on.
...
If they were left to grow up in the vile, murderous and utterly corrupt cultures they were living in, they would have been lost to Him.
...

Your friend,
CD

Wow, that is a bold thing to say. You're basically saying that to prevent children from growing up in vile, murderous communities, God commanded the Israelites to murder these communities in an especially vile manner; man, woman, child and beast, or, alternatively, to take the captured women and have their way with them? If you wouldn't know that an all-merciful God commanded them to do it, wouldn't you be tempted to think the Isralites were a vile, murderous lot? And if you would know, wouldn't you think this God a vile, murderous God?

 

[Mr Clingford]

As one living 12 hours in your future, I can assure you that the day gets better

Hooray!

 

[Fiona]

Although I have only made a few post recently, I have posted reasonably large posts and supplied answers on who the scientists are that have evidence for a young earth and creationist interpretation of the very same facts we all have to work with. It appears that all here would rather believe that these scientists, with PhDs and Masters degrees from the very same universities as scientists that believe in evolution both in a cosmological sense and biological sense, are all liars, ignoramuses or both.

I can answer over and over again questions on contradictions in the bible, I can supply names of creation and ID scientists for people to look up, I can present the main points of creation and ID science, but what I have learned is that none of that is new stuff for anyone here. You all know the points and the people and have already made your decisions. OK, I accept that. I also have made my decision for Jesus and the Bible being true and correct in all that it discusses. I freely admit I will never change my mind on this for many of the reasons I have already stated.

I have not delved very deeply into the fallacies of other religions. I see no real point now since my argument that Christianity and science are not in contradiction is not remotely accepted here. To show that Christianity and science are in agreement is also an excellent way to show how other religions are false since they have obvious factual errors when they touch on scientific matters. Here at JREF, Christianity is also seen that way, and no one concedes the I have any valid points at all, so I have no foundation to move on from in the discussion.

I am glad you have at least recognised that many of the people here have researched the matter and that you have brought nothing new to the table: that is at least more respectful than some of the religious, who appear to think that atheists have not heard what they have to say. To that extent it may be you have learned something and that is to the good.

But you are unfair in the first part I have bolded. I do not think all of us think those scientists are liars or ignoramuses. For myself I think they are exactly like you, as you described yourself in the second bolded part.

Unlike some here I fully accept that each of us has core constructs, and that those constructs are, at least, very tenacious. I do not believe in the wholly rational person who is always and on every topic led solely by evidence. It is a condition to aspire to in the field of science: and it is useful in other areas as well: but it is not all that is useful, and in fact it makes up quite a small part of our experience. The scientific method is arguably over-extended and that causes some problems while solving others.

One of the implications of that view is that the religious are in a very odd position. At the cost of perhaps being controversial, "scientism" is, to me, a bit of a problem. But it does not undermine anything which really matters to me: I value critical thinking and it leads me to see the scientific method as one tool but not the only tool. Where I think it is not the right tool I am free to discard it. So are you.

But if that is how you see your belief, (and that is what follows from the second bolded sentence), then you are in a false position in this whole passage. If science is not the right tool then there is no reason to engage in questions which are properly within that field to try to justify your religion. I can see that the "hegemony" of the scientific method is as strong in the religious as in the rest of us: we all grow up in this culture and it is natural to wish to reconcile these different threads because we like our internal world to be a bit consistent and you cannot escape the overlap: but it can't and shouldn't be done. There are many religious who recognise this: I think some are posting in this thread. They do not try to prove the literal truth of the bible or to overturn the demonstrable facts science has given us. Rather they seem to understand that these are very separate worlds of discourse.

That kind of religious person is not different from me or from any of us. They do not try to meet science on its own ground. They hold to the core belief and the science cannot touch it or threaten it, because the fields do not in fact overlap. Of course that will not be open to you if you are convinced that the bible is literally true: but it is a workable solution, where literalism is not, IMO.

What I am trying to say is that you cannot really have it both ways: you cannot say you will never change your mind and at the same time engage with the scientific community. To repeat, I do not think that you are different from the rest of us in having core beliefs: but I do think that where there is an honest disagreement about what the evidence shows, then it is incumbent on each of us to withdraw if the issue is one of those. To do otherwise is to frustrate those who are discussing it with you, because they are entitled to believe that the fact of engagement implies that you admit the possibility of changing your mind. When it becomes clear that is not the case they feel cheated: and they are right.

Of course that leaves out the fact that even when we are committed and should not engage we might have facts or arguments which are missed by those who are honestly discussing the issue. Personally I am not such an original thinker that this happens to me very much: but it does happen and I think it is legitimate to put those on the table even when I am not open to persuasion: and of course I sometimes learn from those who are equally committed on the other side when they do the same. Because of the nature of those beliefs I incorporate such knowledge into my scheme and if you are honest you will admit to the same: and that is why your first bolded part is not fair. For me, at least, I do not think those people are liars or ignorant: but I think they will go to enormous lengths to incorporate any new information in to that core belief system. And we are all very very good at doing this. It is one reason why letters after your name is not enough: for we are all still human and we cannot escape the process of self deception.

I have also touched on some of the difficult doctrines of Christianity regarding the true nature of humankind. I completely understand that many people do not see a loving merciful gracious God in scripture, especially in the Old Testament. I am personally convinced this is because they do not correctly understand the full scope of what is going on in the particular instances that seem harsh and cruel. All I can do is present, to the best of my ability, logical rational answers as to what is really going on in some of the difficult situations and passages in the Bible that deal with issues that many find cruel and immoral by God. For example, many people have brought up the misconception that God condones slavery. This is a misunderstanding and application of the modern and western definition of slavery. A Hebrew bondservant is not at all like what we consider a slave in a modern sense. A Hebrew bondservant was protected by law and to be treated very well by their master. A simple study on this issue in ancient Hebrew language and culture will shed a whole new light on the subject.

Although this is outside the realm of science I think it illustrates the same point quite neatly: here you are defending slavery using arguments which are very familiar, no matter what form the slavery takes: it is an example of the self deception I mentioned above and it arises from your twin core beliefs that god is good and the bible is true. I do not ask you to give up those beliefs. But you are not explaining slavery here: you are explaining it away. I prefer to call things by their name if I can. I prefer to live with the obvious contradiction than to pretend it is not there. If that leads me to a position where my beliefs cannot be internally consistent I can admit that and live with it. Can you?

So, at this point, this is what I would like anyone who reads my posts to understand:

Jesus in not your enemy, Christianity is not your enemy, nor are true Christians you enemy in any way.True Christians are not violent or hostile toward anyone of any belief system. A true Christian will vehemently oppose the philosophy and doctrines of all other belief systems, it is important to do so because of the doctrine of salvation, but we are commanded by Jesus to love the people of all belief systems. All a true Christian can do is verbally pronounce the philosophies and doctrines of other belief systems false. That’s it, nothing more. We are required and commanded to love and care for the people of those opposing belief systems. If a Christian goes any further than verbal opposition to another religion or belief system, they have gone too far and are very possibly a counterfeit. I will be side by side with you denouncing anyone, whether they call them selves a Christian or not, if they try to take away your free will to decide for your self what you believe.

In Luke 6:27 we have the essence of how a true Christian is to relate to people of any other belief system, "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. 32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."

The problem I see with this passage arises from the conflation of those bits I have bolded: you see, Christian Dude, atheists are not your enemy and they are not enemies of your God. It is you who are splitting the world in this way and I cannot reconcile this insistence on division with the rest of the passage you quote.

If someone says they are a Christian and they do not treat you as Jesus told us to above, dismiss them as a true Christian and categorize them as counterfeits. You do notice it does not say to not contend with people of other belief systems about their beliefs. That would also go against what Jesus has commanded His disciples to do. Jesus told us in Matthew 28:19-20 to “19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” The key is that Jesus told us to teach people to observe (follow) all the things Jesus taught. He said He was the one and only way to get to Heaven. In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” So a true Christian must tell you about Jesus, and that He is the only way you will ever get to see Heaven. But that is all a true Christian can do, is tell you. We can’t try anything to force you to believe this or do anything to punish you because you don’t. Unfortunately there have been plenty of counterfeit Christians who have done, and still do, horrible things to people in the name of Christ. That is not real and true Christianity nor does Jesus have anything to do with it.

It has been pointed out before what is wrong with the part I have bolded. If a religious person acts as is recommended in Luke and shows by their actions that their way of living is a good way and worthy of emulation then it is likely that folk will see that and ask how they do it: and then comes your opportunity to tell them. Absent that behaviour it is at best arrogant to "tell you". You see in many of these threads that certain christians behave in ways which are utterly at odds with this prescription: people who are neither kind nor compassionate. Such people seem to agree that the only thing a christian can do is "tell you": is that more important than the behaviour which confers legitimacy? Why should we listen to those who do not live what they preach? You will say they are not true christians: are you not married to one such person? Is Kurious Kathy not a true christian? it seem to me she is not, on the basis of the definition you have given: might you not be better "telling" someone a little closer to home? Is her soul not worth saving?

<snip>

they do not understand human nature is bad not good.

It is not true, you see. Now that is core belief of mine, as it happens, and so I will not debate the point: but know that it is at odds with the facts as I see them. There are others here who are perhaps open to persuasion if you present your evidence, and I recommend that you do so. It is pretty central to the disagreement between your view and that of many atheists.

<snip>

God chooses first to offer His mercy and grace to us before He ever judges us. He does not want to judge us. He only does it when we force Him to by rejecting Him and reconciliation through the salvation provided to us by Jesus. In Ezekiel 33:11 God says, “Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” What you must understand about God in the Old Testament is that He never judges anyone until He has suffered their rebellion and sin against Him for a Long time. He does not want to judge anyone, He only does so when there is no hope of repentance and salvation for a person or nation.

If god can be forced to do anything by my actions or my thoughts, then he is not the omnipotent god of the abrahamic religions.

Then we always get to the kids. Why did God have to judge the kids along with the adults? You know, I don’t know in 100% certainty. Scripture does not clearly and plainly state why.

Now that is better. But it would be better still if you had stopped there because the next bit

All we can do is make some deductions as to what might be going on. Here is my best personal answer. I believe, because I know the nature of God through so many scriptures, as some provided above, and personal experience of His nature in my and others lives, there is mercy contained in His judgment somehow when kids are caught in it. One thought I have is that the kids, being to young to know right from wrong, are taken to Heaven and live with God there for the rest of eternity. If they were left to grow up in the vile, murderous and utterly corrupt cultures they were living in, they would have been lost to Him.

is where, once again, you do not explain it: you explain it away.

 

[Belz...]

Jesus in not your enemy

Neither is Santa.

Christianity is not your enemy, nor are true Christians you enemy in any way. True Christians are not violent or hostile toward anyone of any belief system.

Are True Scottsmen my enemies ?

 

[six7s]

True Christians are not violent or hostile toward anyone of any belief system.

Please name 42 of them

TYIA

 

[RoboTimbo]

He does not want to judge us. He only does it when we force Him to by rejecting Him and reconciliation through the salvation provided to us by Jesus.

He does not want to judge anyone, He only does so when there is no hope of repentance and salvation for a person or nation.

God never judges anyone unless there is no hope for them and He is forced to judge them because He is the perfect, holy, sinless, creator God that is also the righteous judge, and cannot let sin go unpunished.

Substitute "abusive husband" for God and "applies the belt" for judges and see if it makes any more sense. I feel a deep, abiding sympathy for kk. And I mean that sincerely. The thought sickens me as does your religion and your god.

 

[Ladewig]

Although I have only made a few post recently, I have posted reasonably large posts and supplied answers on who the scientists are that have evidence for a young earth and creationist interpretation of the very same facts we all have to work with. It appears that all here would rather believe that these scientists, with PhDs and Masters degrees from the very same universities as scientists that believe in evolution both in a cosmological sense and biological sense, are all liars, ignoramuses or both.

To claim that the world is ~6000 years old is to be off by six orders of magnitude. That is not a small amount. The distance from New York City to London is 3470 miles. To be off by six orders of magnitude on that distance is to claim that the distance is 18 feet. If I met someone who insisted that the distance between those two cities was 18 feet, I would indeed wonder about that person's qualifications. If he then developed the "theory of tired distance" to explain why the two cities only appeared to be 3470 miles apart, I would then believe that that person was a liar, an ignoramus, or both.

How about you Christian Dude, what words would you use to describe someone who insisted that the distance between those cities was 18 feet?

 

[jmcvann]

...[we] do not understand human nature is bad not good.

...If [children] were left to grow up in the vile, murderous and utterly corrupt cultures they were living in...

And there it is. The overwhelming negativity I see in almost all believers. I don't know how you get out of bed in the morning in such a horrible world.

I don’t want to win arguments, or win debates, or to be right.

Oh, yes you do.

 

[Roadtoad]

The fatal flaw for me in this is Christian Dude's perpetual assertion that the world is "evil."

Sorry, that's a no-go. The world is not "evil." The world is what it is. The world has evil people, and there are people doing evil things because they don't know any better, but that's why we have things like science and inquiry, and open discussion. It's why we debate.

Christian Dude isn't interested in winning a debate, he says, but why would you engage in one if that isn't your goal, particularly when that's what you're doing?

 

[Lonewulf]

The fatal flaw for me in this is Christian Dude's perpetual assertion that the world is "evil."

Sorry, that's a no-go. The world is not "evil." The world is what it is. The world has evil people, and there are people doing evil things because they don't know any better, but that's why we have things like science and inquiry, and open discussion. It's why we debate.

As I said in my long post above, the common perspective given by people like Christian Dude makes people out to be... "lesser" beings. The very idea of Original Sin, for instance, lessens what it means to be human, and creates a false sense of guilt just at being born.

It's even worse if one applies it to the world itself.

Christian Dude isn't interested in winning a debate, he says, but why would you engage in one if that isn't your goal, particularly when that's what you're doing?

Because someone out there might just read the posts, see the "teachings of Christ", and accept Salvation.

Like I said, Christian Dude came as a slave, to praise his slavery, to praise his master, and to offer the chains with a smile.

It does not have to be his "opponent" that accepts those chains.

That is, and was his entire goal here on the JREF. It's the burden of any Evangelist -- from the Four Evangelists to the modern breed.

 

[Profwag]

...but we are commanded by Jesus to love the people of all belief systems. All a true Christian can do is verbally pronounce the philosophies and doctrines of other belief systems false. That’s it, nothing more. We are required and commanded to love and care for the people of those opposing belief systems. If a Christian goes any further than verbal opposition to another religion or belief system, they have gone too far and are very possibly a counterfeit... CD

CD,
Please, if I'm off base on this question then I would love a clarification. Christians are commanded "to love and care for people of opposing belief systems." However, if an Athiest, Buddhist (or any other religion) does not follow Christ, then they are damned and committed to suffering in an eternal Hell. How is this damnation morally sound by someone who commands others to "love and cares" for people? This doesn't sound very loving. Can you clarify what seems to me like a two-way street?

 

[Roadtoad]

As I said in my long post above, the common perspective given by people like Christian Dude makes people out to be... "lesser" beings. The very idea of Original Sin, for instance, lessens what it means to be human, and creates a false sense of guilt just at being born.

It's even worse if one applies it to the world itself.

I noted that, (and it was an excellent post, BTW), and was merely trying emphasize the point. CD isn't interested, really, and neither is Kurious Kathy. It's the kind of thing which requires thought, and that's not something they're willing to tolerate.

Because someone out there might just read the posts, see the "teachings of Christ", and accept Salvation.

Like I said, Christian Dude came as a slave, to praise his slavery, to praise his master, and to offer the chains with a smile.

It does not have to be his "opponent" that accepts those chains.

That is, and was his entire goal here on the JREF. It's the burden of any Evangelist -- from the Four Evangelists to the modern breed.

I'm reminded of the tale of Charlie Smith, (I think it was), who came to America as a slave, who'd been told tales of "fritter trees," and how easy life would be on this side of the ocean. He found himself here, in chains, on the auction block. While most of us have the image from TV of Kunta Kinte fighting against the iron chains which held him, we forget that people wanted slaves in good condition. So wrestling them to the ground wasn't always an option.

Some of us have come to recognize the lie for what it is. (Check out my sig for more.)

 

[joobz]

Although I have only made a few post recently, I have posted reasonably large posts and supplied answers on who the scientists are that have evidence for a young earth and creationist interpretation of the very same facts we all have to work with.

which were identified as being poor interpretations. Not because it was YEC people who made them, but because the evidence doesn't support thier conclusions. In order to say that it does, one must ignore a vast amount of other bits of information. In science, you CAN NOT ignore data that refutes your claim. The arguments you made does exactly that. end of story.

It appears that all here would rather believe that these scientists, with PhDs and Masters degrees from the very same universities as scientists that believe in evolution both in a cosmological sense and biological sense, are all liars, ignoramuses or both.

No. I don't rahter believe them. I rather believe consistent solid logical theories well supported by indepentantly verifiable, repeatably testable evidence.

The fact that scientists are the ones providing this is not my problem. Don't play science if you can't live up to the rigors of it.

I can answer over and over again questions on contradictions in the bible, I can supply names of creation and ID scientists for people to look up, I can present the main points of creation and ID science, but what I have learned is that none of that is new stuff for anyone here. You all know the points and the people and have already made your decisions.

THis is even more telling.

Science doesn't stop just because we are fairly certain of the answer. We keep retesting it as new data comes in. The fact that you are so willing to throw your hands up like it's all a done deal highlights even further that you are not actually interested in presenting a scientific argument but a dogmatic one.

OK, I accept that. I also have made my decision for Jesus and the Bible being true and correct in all that it discusses. I freely admit I will never change my mind on this for many of the reasons I have already stated.

this is perfectly acceptable. Just please don't pretend that you have science supporting it. That's like saying that I use magic in developing new medical treatments.

I have not delved very deeply into the fallacies of other religions.

Which is funny because that's the OP!!!!!!

I see no real point now since my argument that Christianity and science are not in contradiction is not remotely accepted here.

They don't need to be in contradiction, if you are willing to accept that the bible isn't inerrant.

To show that Christianity and science are in agreement is also an excellent way to show how other religions are false since they have obvious factual errors when they touch on scientific matters.

You haven't shown science to be in agreement with christianity. You can't even accept what science shows.

Here at JREF, Christianity is also seen that way, and no one concedes the I have any valid points at all, so I have no foundation to move on from in the discussion.

Perhaps start by presenting a valid point.

I have also touched on some of the difficult doctrines of Christianity regarding the true nature of humankind. I completely understand that many people do not see a loving merciful gracious God in scripture, especially in the Old Testament. I am personally convinced this is because they do not correctly understand the full scope of what is going on in the particular instances that seem harsh and cruel.

A god who holds people responsible for the sins of others (original sin) is an unjust god. We don't need to go any farther than that.

All I can do is present, to the best of my ability, logical rational answers as to what is really going on in some of the difficult situations and passages in the Bible that deal with issues that many find cruel and immoral by God.

I welcome you to do so.

For example, many people have brought up the misconception that God condones slavery. This is a misunderstanding and application of the modern and western definition of slavery. A Hebrew bondservant is not at all like what we consider a slave in a modern sense. A Hebrew bondservant was protected by law and to be treated very well by their master. A simple study on this issue in ancient Hebrew language and culture will shed a whole new light on the subject.

A slave is a slave. It's a loss of personal freedom and saying one person OWNS another. Certainly they come in degrees, but the concept of ownership is at the heart of it. Jesus didn't think this to be a bad thing. I do.

So, at this point, this is what I would like anyone who reads my posts to understand:

Jesus in not your enemy, Christianity is not your enemy, nor are true Christians you enemy in any way. True Christians are not violent or hostile toward anyone of any belief system. A true Christian will vehemently oppose the philosophy and doctrines of all other belief systems, it is important to do so because of the doctrine of salvation, but we are commanded by Jesus to love the people of all belief systems. All a true Christian can do is verbally pronounce the philosophies and doctrines of other belief systems false.

That's nice. But saying others are wrong doesn't make you right.