tsig
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Texas is a state of mind.
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The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems
- Thread starter Christian Dude
- Start date
Texas is a state of mind.
six7s
veretic
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Fireshadow
Graduate Poster
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Very, very close
Ok, so it was Douglas Adams speaking through Ford Prefect...so I guess that does meet your criteria of famous dead dude.
Tanstaafl
Unindicted Co-conspirator
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tsig
a carbon based life-form
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Think "Northern Exposure"
Elizabeth I
Philosopher
Ah, but did you say, "You must crawl to me and abase yourself and confess your sins and then I will forgive you?" Doesn't sound like it - sounds like you did it the right way - just said, "I forgive you" and that was it.
If God or Jesus wanted to forgive us our sins, that's all He would have to do. But no, He requires us to do all this "I am a sinner and lower than a worm" thing before we can be forgiven.
In Texas, they all are.
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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No
I have always found the idea of forgiveness within the christian conception difficult. If it means "ceasing to feel resentment against an offender" it has too many mechanisms for comfort.
Let us say that your very young child looks your beloved aunt in the eye and tells her she is ugly. If the aunt fears this is true, then it is perfectly possible the child has done harm. That, in its turn may lead to resentment, however briefly. It is expected that forgiveness will follow because it is a bit daft to hold a grudge in this case: and so we respond by teaching the child tact as quick as we can. There is no need for the child to admit the offence and ask for that forgiveness: he or she is not in a position to understand what he or she has done wrong.
In some bits of Christianity this seems to be the conception of the relationship between humanity and god. So we see the statement "forgive them for they know not what they do". A curious thing to say, IMO, and the only sense I can make of it is that God is not in fact omniscient: he was truly unable to "get" why people disobeyed him and so he had set up the whole hell thing on the basis that humanity's fall was wilful defiance in the same way as (arguably) Satan's was. And he further thought that eating he apple gave mankind a full knowledge of good and evil of the sort he had himself. But it seems he had some lingering doubt about his analysis so he became fully human to check it out: and he learned it was intrinsic to our nature to sin and we really couldn't help it. So far so good: but then it makes no sense to demand we ask for forgiveness any more than it would to demand it of the child or the dog who steals the steak we left out. We do not need to deny the harm to see that such a demand is ridiculous. If we can see that then so can god. Neither the dog nor the child is morally responsible and that is all there is about it.
If that is the nature of the relationship then god was wrong to make hell and he learned he was wrong as evidenced by that statement from the cross: so if he is a good guy hell must have been abolished after the sacrifice of christ. Or so it seems to me.
There is nothing I can see that gets around that: if the christian's view was that god then took some other action so that we were perfectly capable of "being good" then that would be akin to teaching the child tact. Once the child has learned tact then the same vignette takes on a different character. Now he or she is deliberately insulting your aunt and he or she has a choice about that. Forgiveness is no longer the only option: your aunt can quite reasonably resent the child. She may decide the child does not matter enough and so have no resentment through indifference to that child's views: or she may decide to forgive if the child is sorry and says so: or if she can see a reason (though not a justification) for it, such as anger or fear or whatever. But if she does not forgive we may think it harsh but it is not ridiculous any more (depending of course on the age of the child and how much tact he or she has learned). That does not give her license to beat him to a pulp though: a sense of proportion is required: and so it is with an offended god who does not wish to forgive. Eternal punishment is akin to breaking the kid's bones: it will get you jail no matter what he or she said to you.
In the christian conception you have to have some idea like the teaching of tact; and I think this is what is meant by the gift of the holy spirit. In this analogy that is the gift of tact. But there is a problem here. If the statement from the cross is true (and since this is god speaking we have to assume that) then it is true for all the people who lived before that sacrifice, for they were not taught tact and were really like little children who had no idea what they did was wrong: so they must all be forgiven.
After the sacrifice the "tact" has been taught and this gives all who received it a choice. The objection that those who never heard of christ have no chance of heaven now falls: because we can presume the gift was given to all mankind and so they can be tactful even if they do not know the story. So it follows that we do not need to to this abject crawling recommended by the KK's of this world. It cannot be true that knowledge of christ is essential to salvation.
And this is what we see: most people are not boors. Most people do not deliberately set out to insult people for no reason at all. Most people do not need a knowledge of the christian story to lead decent and useful lives. Those who do are rather unpleasant and they are worthy of remark because they are unusual. To me it follows that if you take the christian view then the sacrifice of christ worked: it informed god where he went wrong and he fixed it. The atonement is not precisely that: it is more in the nature of a report on the results of an investigation into a system failure with a recommendation for change which was subsequently implemented.
To me the kind of conception of humanity which is inherent in fundamentalist christianity is at odds with the facts: because I do not see most people as evil but rather as mostly good. Most do not do things they believe to be wrong ( though we can be be really skilled at justifying rotten things: we are quite ingenious that way) and they go to quite a lot of trouble to avoid that, within the limits of their understanding of the consequences of their actions. It is true that there are exceptions; but since god has already been shown to be wrong about the situation once, it is clear that his "fix" can be imperfect too: and indeed it seems he is aware of that because he intends to review the system at some point in the future with the second coming.
For me it seems a bit blasphemous to contend that mankind is inherently and wilfully sinful, because it implies that god lied on the cross: and also that his fix did not work. I am with Sun Countess when she points out she is a good person and does not deserve hell. That is true for most of us, and if it is correct that this is what god wants and intends,then it is shockingly disrespectful to suggest that he failed as badly as people like KK contend.
I do not believe in god. But if I did then I think I could not believe in a god so incompetent as the one presented by the fundamentalists: I would find it easier to accept that he flawed but well intentioned than that he is perfect but evil and egocentric
Let us say that your very young child looks your beloved aunt in the eye and tells her she is ugly. If the aunt fears this is true, then it is perfectly possible the child has done harm. That, in its turn may lead to resentment, however briefly. It is expected that forgiveness will follow because it is a bit daft to hold a grudge in this case: and so we respond by teaching the child tact as quick as we can. There is no need for the child to admit the offence and ask for that forgiveness: he or she is not in a position to understand what he or she has done wrong.
In some bits of Christianity this seems to be the conception of the relationship between humanity and god. So we see the statement "forgive them for they know not what they do". A curious thing to say, IMO, and the only sense I can make of it is that God is not in fact omniscient: he was truly unable to "get" why people disobeyed him and so he had set up the whole hell thing on the basis that humanity's fall was wilful defiance in the same way as (arguably) Satan's was. And he further thought that eating he apple gave mankind a full knowledge of good and evil of the sort he had himself. But it seems he had some lingering doubt about his analysis so he became fully human to check it out: and he learned it was intrinsic to our nature to sin and we really couldn't help it. So far so good: but then it makes no sense to demand we ask for forgiveness any more than it would to demand it of the child or the dog who steals the steak we left out. We do not need to deny the harm to see that such a demand is ridiculous. If we can see that then so can god. Neither the dog nor the child is morally responsible and that is all there is about it.
If that is the nature of the relationship then god was wrong to make hell and he learned he was wrong as evidenced by that statement from the cross: so if he is a good guy hell must have been abolished after the sacrifice of christ. Or so it seems to me.
There is nothing I can see that gets around that: if the christian's view was that god then took some other action so that we were perfectly capable of "being good" then that would be akin to teaching the child tact. Once the child has learned tact then the same vignette takes on a different character. Now he or she is deliberately insulting your aunt and he or she has a choice about that. Forgiveness is no longer the only option: your aunt can quite reasonably resent the child. She may decide the child does not matter enough and so have no resentment through indifference to that child's views: or she may decide to forgive if the child is sorry and says so: or if she can see a reason (though not a justification) for it, such as anger or fear or whatever. But if she does not forgive we may think it harsh but it is not ridiculous any more (depending of course on the age of the child and how much tact he or she has learned). That does not give her license to beat him to a pulp though: a sense of proportion is required: and so it is with an offended god who does not wish to forgive. Eternal punishment is akin to breaking the kid's bones: it will get you jail no matter what he or she said to you.
In the christian conception you have to have some idea like the teaching of tact; and I think this is what is meant by the gift of the holy spirit. In this analogy that is the gift of tact. But there is a problem here. If the statement from the cross is true (and since this is god speaking we have to assume that) then it is true for all the people who lived before that sacrifice, for they were not taught tact and were really like little children who had no idea what they did was wrong: so they must all be forgiven.
After the sacrifice the "tact" has been taught and this gives all who received it a choice. The objection that those who never heard of christ have no chance of heaven now falls: because we can presume the gift was given to all mankind and so they can be tactful even if they do not know the story. So it follows that we do not need to to this abject crawling recommended by the KK's of this world. It cannot be true that knowledge of christ is essential to salvation.
And this is what we see: most people are not boors. Most people do not deliberately set out to insult people for no reason at all. Most people do not need a knowledge of the christian story to lead decent and useful lives. Those who do are rather unpleasant and they are worthy of remark because they are unusual. To me it follows that if you take the christian view then the sacrifice of christ worked: it informed god where he went wrong and he fixed it. The atonement is not precisely that: it is more in the nature of a report on the results of an investigation into a system failure with a recommendation for change which was subsequently implemented.
To me the kind of conception of humanity which is inherent in fundamentalist christianity is at odds with the facts: because I do not see most people as evil but rather as mostly good. Most do not do things they believe to be wrong ( though we can be be really skilled at justifying rotten things: we are quite ingenious that way) and they go to quite a lot of trouble to avoid that, within the limits of their understanding of the consequences of their actions. It is true that there are exceptions; but since god has already been shown to be wrong about the situation once, it is clear that his "fix" can be imperfect too: and indeed it seems he is aware of that because he intends to review the system at some point in the future with the second coming.
For me it seems a bit blasphemous to contend that mankind is inherently and wilfully sinful, because it implies that god lied on the cross: and also that his fix did not work. I am with Sun Countess when she points out she is a good person and does not deserve hell. That is true for most of us, and if it is correct that this is what god wants and intends,then it is shockingly disrespectful to suggest that he failed as badly as people like KK contend.
I do not believe in god. But if I did then I think I could not believe in a god so incompetent as the one presented by the fundamentalists: I would find it easier to accept that he flawed but well intentioned than that he is perfect but evil and egocentric
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Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
I underkerstumble. Cheers.As an aside, I'm just going to start calling it the Sun myself I think. I'm getting a bit worried that people might have thought I was fair dinkum about this Aten nonsense.
I can keep it up for the sake of the discussion, but I don't think it's of any use in helping our friend with the blinkers, and I apologise if I've annoyed anyone with it.
Back to your scheduled progamming . . .
Cheers,
Dave
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
Thanks Fiona.
I can't say, "my thoughts exactly", because if they were then I'd be able to express them as well as you do. I'll just have to say, "Well said, ma'am!"
I've snippied your post down to just the bit I feel equipped to answer, and no slight is intended.
That's a fascinating definition of the atonement, and I hope I can remember it. It seems to make so much more sense than if a devout theist had attempted it.
Your observation of people's generally decent behaviour without "benefit" of christian ethics is one I've seen put forward in many, many venues by atheists, and it's always either ignored completely or responded to poorly by the other side.
I think I'm agreeing with you in saying that a lot of what I might call bad behaviour on the part of christians is due to an abbrogation of responsibility that is isn't logically available to atheists. It's not fair! Why can't we have somebody else to blame for our shortcomings?
If that's not exactly agreeing with you, then I'd just like to add it anyway
Yeah, the contradictions pile up, don't they?
I'm glad you referred to shocking disrespect as an alternative to blasphemy in this paragraph. I'm afraid I can't get hold of the concept of blasphemy at all, but disrespect is something I can relate to.
Maybe the Aten can help you with that.
I said I wasn't going to do that any more.
Cheers,
Dave
I can't say, "my thoughts exactly", because if they were then I'd be able to express them as well as you do. I'll just have to say, "Well said, ma'am!"
I've snippied your post down to just the bit I feel equipped to answer, and no slight is intended.
That's a fascinating definition of the atonement, and I hope I can remember it. It seems to make so much more sense than if a devout theist had attempted it.
Your observation of people's generally decent behaviour without "benefit" of christian ethics is one I've seen put forward in many, many venues by atheists, and it's always either ignored completely or responded to poorly by the other side.
I think I'm agreeing with you in saying that a lot of what I might call bad behaviour on the part of christians is due to an abbrogation of responsibility that is isn't logically available to atheists. It's not fair! Why can't we have somebody else to blame for our shortcomings?
If that's not exactly agreeing with you, then I'd just like to add it anyway
Yeah, the contradictions pile up, don't they?
I'm glad you referred to shocking disrespect as an alternative to blasphemy in this paragraph. I'm afraid I can't get hold of the concept of blasphemy at all, but disrespect is something I can relate to.
I said I wasn't going to do that any more.
Cheers,
Dave
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tsig
a carbon based life-form
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As an aside, I'm just going to start calling it the Sun myself I think. I'm getting a bit worried that people might have thought I was fair dinkum about this Aten nonsense.
I can keep it up for the sake of the discussion, but I don't think it's of any use in helping our friend with the blinkers, and I apologise if I've annoyed anyone with it.
Back to your scheduled progamming . . .
Cheers,
Dave
Well we already had the church set up and all guess I'll just have to keep the money to myself.
Belz...
Fiend God
Hey, I'm well aware of that. But we are what we are. So the result is posts that contain some truth but are sullied by a dose of abrasiveness.
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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- 39,049
As an aside, I'm just going to start calling it the Sun myself I think. I'm getting a bit worried that people might have thought I was fair dinkum about this Aten nonsense.
I can keep it up for the sake of the discussion, but I don't think it's of any use in helping our friend with the blinkers, and I apologise if I've annoyed anyone with it.
Back to your scheduled progamming . . .
Cheers,
Dave
I worked at a cement plant in Texas and every day as I turned up the stair to go to the instrument shop I saw the great orange sun.
sphenisc
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2004
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- 6,253
You are forgiven.
..and you can keep your Aten. (Tom Jones)
No problem. Thanks.
ETA: It's not the first time I've been off by 180 degrees. Maybe I should change my forum title to something more apropos. Any ideas?
M.
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Christian Dude
Scholar
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
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- 118
Although I have only made a few post recently, I have posted reasonably large posts and supplied answers on who the scientists are that have evidence for a young earth and creationist interpretation of the very same facts we all have to work with. It appears that all here would rather believe that these scientists, with PhDs and Masters degrees from the very same universities as scientists that believe in evolution both in a cosmological sense and biological sense, are all liars, ignoramuses or both. I can answer over and over again questions on contradictions in the bible, I can supply names of creation and ID scientists for people to look up, I can present the main points of creation and ID science, but what I have learned is that none of that is new stuff for anyone here. You all know the points and the people and have already made your decisions. OK, I accept that. I also have made my decision for Jesus and the Bible being true and correct in all that it discusses. I freely admit I will never change my mind on this for many of the reasons I have already stated.
I have not delved very deeply into the fallacies of other religions. I see no real point now since my argument that Christianity and science are not in contradiction is not remotely accepted here. To show that Christianity and science are in agreement is also an excellent way to show how other religions are false since they have obvious factual errors when they touch on scientific matters. Here at JREF, Christianity is also seen that way, and no one concedes the I have any valid points at all, so I have no foundation to move on from in the discussion.
I have also touched on some of the difficult doctrines of Christianity regarding the true nature of humankind. I completely understand that many people do not see a loving merciful gracious God in scripture, especially in the Old Testament. I am personally convinced this is because they do not correctly understand the full scope of what is going on in the particular instances that seem harsh and cruel. All I can do is present, to the best of my ability, logical rational answers as to what is really going on in some of the difficult situations and passages in the Bible that deal with issues that many find cruel and immoral by God. For example, many people have brought up the misconception that God condones slavery. This is a misunderstanding and application of the modern and western definition of slavery. A Hebrew bondservant is not at all like what we consider a slave in a modern sense. A Hebrew bondservant was protected by law and to be treated very well by their master. A simple study on this issue in ancient Hebrew language and culture will shed a whole new light on the subject.
So, at this point, this is what I would like anyone who reads my posts to understand:
Jesus in not your enemy, Christianity is not your enemy, nor are true Christians you enemy in any way. True Christians are not violent or hostile toward anyone of any belief system. A true Christian will vehemently oppose the philosophy and doctrines of all other belief systems, it is important to do so because of the doctrine of salvation, but we are commanded by Jesus to love the people of all belief systems. All a true Christian can do is verbally pronounce the philosophies and doctrines of other belief systems false. That’s it, nothing more. We are required and commanded to love and care for the people of those opposing belief systems. If a Christian goes any further than verbal opposition to another religion or belief system, they have gone too far and are very possibly a counterfeit. I will be side by side with you denouncing anyone, whether they call them selves a Christian or not, if they try to take away your free will to decide for your self what you believe.
In Luke 6:27 we have the essence of how a true Christian is to relate to people of any other belief system, "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. 32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."
If someone says they are a Christian and they do not treat you as Jesus told us to above, dismiss them as a true Christian and categorize them as counterfeits. You do notice it does not say to not contend with people of other belief systems about their beliefs. That would also go against what Jesus has commanded His disciples to do. Jesus told us in Matthew 28:19-20 to “19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” The key is that Jesus told us to teach people to observe (follow) all the things Jesus taught. He said He was the one and only way to get to Heaven. In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” So a true Christian must tell you about Jesus, and that He is the only way you will ever get to see Heaven. But that is all a true Christian can do, is tell you. We can’t try anything to force you to believe this or do anything to punish you because you don’t. Unfortunately there have been plenty of counterfeit Christians who have done, and still do, horrible things to people in the name of Christ. That is not real and true Christianity nor does Jesus have anything to do with it.
You might ask, “why does Jesus then allow all the terrible things that have been done in His name to happen? If He is really God, why doesn’t He stop that garbage?” For the very same reason a true Christian can’t do any more than just tell you about Jesus; He will not override your free will to choose what you believe for your self. If Jesus was to instantly destroy every person that sinned, people would submit to Him out of fear, not because of love and by free will.
You may like what the New Testament teaches, and have real problems with the Old Testament, and can’t understand how Christians reconcile the two. I believe why most people see the God of the Old Testament as a blood thirsty immoral being is because they are focused on His judging a nation or people and have an emotional sentimental response to His judging people, and, they do not understand human nature is bad not good. In Exodus 34:6-7 God describes His character to us in His own words, “6 And the LORD passed before him (Moses) and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation." God chooses first to offer His mercy and grace to us before He ever judges us. He does not want to judge us. He only does it when we force Him to by rejecting Him and reconciliation through the salvation provided to us by Jesus. In Ezekiel 33:11 God says, “Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” What you must understand about God in the Old Testament is that He never judges anyone until He has suffered their rebellion and sin against Him for a Long time. He does not want to judge anyone, He only does so when there is no hope of repentance and salvation for a person or nation.
Then we always get to the kids. Why did God have to judge the kids along with the adults? You know, I don’t know in 100% certainty. Scripture does not clearly and plainly state why. All we can do is make some deductions as to what might be going on. Here is my best personal answer. I believe, because I know the nature of God through so many scriptures, as some provided above, and personal experience of His nature in my and others lives, there is mercy contained in His judgment somehow when kids are caught in it. One thought I have is that the kids, being to young to know right from wrong, are taken to Heaven and live with God there for the rest of eternity. If they were left to grow up in the vile, murderous and utterly corrupt cultures they were living in, they would have been lost to Him. Because I know the nature of God, He could judge the nation and save the kids, He just might do something like that. When you think of things in an eternal perspective like God does, it does not matter, in the much larger scope of eternity, that a life here on earth might have been relatively short compared to the average earthly life. I state once again, God never judges anyone unless there is no hope for them and He is forced to judge them because He is the perfect, holy, sinless, creator God that is also the righteous judge, and cannot let sin go unpunished. Yes all sin is judged and punished. Either a person’s sin was placed on Jesus, and He bore the punishment for it, or the person still has their sin and they have to bear the punishment.
If you don’t agree with a single thing I have said, that is fine, I won’t hate you and will still care about you. All I can do is communicate the truth God has revealed to us in scripture. That is it, I can not go any further and must respect your right to choose what you believe for your self. But why myself, Kathy and some other Christians are here at JREF is because our Lord Jesus Christ commands us to care about you, and warn you about your dire situation outside of Christ’s salvation. He is also teaching us how to love you, almost perfect strangers, we only know through the cold and sterile textile environment of an online forum. I don’t want to win arguments, or win debates, or to be right. I only want to do as my Lord commands and care for you in the best way I can in an online forum and tell you that you are loved, loved so very deeply, by the one who created you and desperately wants to be reconciled back to you. I will leave it at that for now.
Your friend,
CD
I have not delved very deeply into the fallacies of other religions. I see no real point now since my argument that Christianity and science are not in contradiction is not remotely accepted here. To show that Christianity and science are in agreement is also an excellent way to show how other religions are false since they have obvious factual errors when they touch on scientific matters. Here at JREF, Christianity is also seen that way, and no one concedes the I have any valid points at all, so I have no foundation to move on from in the discussion.
I have also touched on some of the difficult doctrines of Christianity regarding the true nature of humankind. I completely understand that many people do not see a loving merciful gracious God in scripture, especially in the Old Testament. I am personally convinced this is because they do not correctly understand the full scope of what is going on in the particular instances that seem harsh and cruel. All I can do is present, to the best of my ability, logical rational answers as to what is really going on in some of the difficult situations and passages in the Bible that deal with issues that many find cruel and immoral by God. For example, many people have brought up the misconception that God condones slavery. This is a misunderstanding and application of the modern and western definition of slavery. A Hebrew bondservant is not at all like what we consider a slave in a modern sense. A Hebrew bondservant was protected by law and to be treated very well by their master. A simple study on this issue in ancient Hebrew language and culture will shed a whole new light on the subject.
So, at this point, this is what I would like anyone who reads my posts to understand:
Jesus in not your enemy, Christianity is not your enemy, nor are true Christians you enemy in any way. True Christians are not violent or hostile toward anyone of any belief system. A true Christian will vehemently oppose the philosophy and doctrines of all other belief systems, it is important to do so because of the doctrine of salvation, but we are commanded by Jesus to love the people of all belief systems. All a true Christian can do is verbally pronounce the philosophies and doctrines of other belief systems false. That’s it, nothing more. We are required and commanded to love and care for the people of those opposing belief systems. If a Christian goes any further than verbal opposition to another religion or belief system, they have gone too far and are very possibly a counterfeit. I will be side by side with you denouncing anyone, whether they call them selves a Christian or not, if they try to take away your free will to decide for your self what you believe.
In Luke 6:27 we have the essence of how a true Christian is to relate to people of any other belief system, "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. 32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."
If someone says they are a Christian and they do not treat you as Jesus told us to above, dismiss them as a true Christian and categorize them as counterfeits. You do notice it does not say to not contend with people of other belief systems about their beliefs. That would also go against what Jesus has commanded His disciples to do. Jesus told us in Matthew 28:19-20 to “19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” The key is that Jesus told us to teach people to observe (follow) all the things Jesus taught. He said He was the one and only way to get to Heaven. In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” So a true Christian must tell you about Jesus, and that He is the only way you will ever get to see Heaven. But that is all a true Christian can do, is tell you. We can’t try anything to force you to believe this or do anything to punish you because you don’t. Unfortunately there have been plenty of counterfeit Christians who have done, and still do, horrible things to people in the name of Christ. That is not real and true Christianity nor does Jesus have anything to do with it.
You might ask, “why does Jesus then allow all the terrible things that have been done in His name to happen? If He is really God, why doesn’t He stop that garbage?” For the very same reason a true Christian can’t do any more than just tell you about Jesus; He will not override your free will to choose what you believe for your self. If Jesus was to instantly destroy every person that sinned, people would submit to Him out of fear, not because of love and by free will.
You may like what the New Testament teaches, and have real problems with the Old Testament, and can’t understand how Christians reconcile the two. I believe why most people see the God of the Old Testament as a blood thirsty immoral being is because they are focused on His judging a nation or people and have an emotional sentimental response to His judging people, and, they do not understand human nature is bad not good. In Exodus 34:6-7 God describes His character to us in His own words, “6 And the LORD passed before him (Moses) and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation." God chooses first to offer His mercy and grace to us before He ever judges us. He does not want to judge us. He only does it when we force Him to by rejecting Him and reconciliation through the salvation provided to us by Jesus. In Ezekiel 33:11 God says, “Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” What you must understand about God in the Old Testament is that He never judges anyone until He has suffered their rebellion and sin against Him for a Long time. He does not want to judge anyone, He only does so when there is no hope of repentance and salvation for a person or nation.
Then we always get to the kids. Why did God have to judge the kids along with the adults? You know, I don’t know in 100% certainty. Scripture does not clearly and plainly state why. All we can do is make some deductions as to what might be going on. Here is my best personal answer. I believe, because I know the nature of God through so many scriptures, as some provided above, and personal experience of His nature in my and others lives, there is mercy contained in His judgment somehow when kids are caught in it. One thought I have is that the kids, being to young to know right from wrong, are taken to Heaven and live with God there for the rest of eternity. If they were left to grow up in the vile, murderous and utterly corrupt cultures they were living in, they would have been lost to Him. Because I know the nature of God, He could judge the nation and save the kids, He just might do something like that. When you think of things in an eternal perspective like God does, it does not matter, in the much larger scope of eternity, that a life here on earth might have been relatively short compared to the average earthly life. I state once again, God never judges anyone unless there is no hope for them and He is forced to judge them because He is the perfect, holy, sinless, creator God that is also the righteous judge, and cannot let sin go unpunished. Yes all sin is judged and punished. Either a person’s sin was placed on Jesus, and He bore the punishment for it, or the person still has their sin and they have to bear the punishment.
If you don’t agree with a single thing I have said, that is fine, I won’t hate you and will still care about you. All I can do is communicate the truth God has revealed to us in scripture. That is it, I can not go any further and must respect your right to choose what you believe for your self. But why myself, Kathy and some other Christians are here at JREF is because our Lord Jesus Christ commands us to care about you, and warn you about your dire situation outside of Christ’s salvation. He is also teaching us how to love you, almost perfect strangers, we only know through the cold and sterile textile environment of an online forum. I don’t want to win arguments, or win debates, or to be right. I only want to do as my Lord commands and care for you in the best way I can in an online forum and tell you that you are loved, loved so very deeply, by the one who created you and desperately wants to be reconciled back to you. I will leave it at that for now.
Your friend,
CD
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Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Never thought I'd say it, but...
tl; dr.
tl; dr.