The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems

[Fireshadow]

...at least from my own perspective, that without that element of acceptance that you have done harm by your actions, whether intentional or not, there can't be forgiveness. The whole concept of forgiveness is two-way.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this view. I respect that it is your perspective, but I don't see why someone elses acceptance of my forgiveness is necessary for me to forgive. There are many things in my life that I've forgiven in others without their necessarily being even aware that I had forgiven them, much less that they had done wrong. It seems that the giving of forgiveness should not be contingent on the forgiven's acceptance. This is not to say that acknowleding your mistakes and taking responsibility for your actions is unimportant; truly, there is nothing more important in life than honestly facing your own weaknesses.

I do think that greater wrongs require a greater effort to forgive, and there are some things that I can recognize as nearly impossible to forgive without the acknowledgement of wrongdoing. It's a matter of degree, I guess.

It is difficult to completely put these thoughts into words...forgiveness is so tied to emotional response that the concept defies purely logical explanation. I know that sometimes when forgiveness is offered but not accepted (due to denial of wrongdoing or whatever other reason), it is impossible to move forward--with that person. I can logically forgive someone for their trespass, but it's the emotional response that prevents continuing a relationship.

 

[Roadtoad]

Just don't get so carried away that you forget to be civil.

I'll do my best. I should remember this, given all I've said before on this matter.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this view. I respect that it is your perspective, but I don't see why someone elses acceptance of my forgiveness is necessary for me to forgive.

It's not necessary - it's just incomplete if the person being forgiven doesn't accept your forgiveness. You've done your part, they haven't done theirs - and the relationship can never be fully mended until they have. And to be fair - if you never offer them the chance they may be honestly unaware any damage was ever done.

There is another scenario though too. Very often - a person won't accept your forgiveness because they won't forgive themselves. They understand full well what they did and self-torment themselves because of it. In this case, a relationship still cannot be fully mended even though you've forgiven them.

 

[Fireshadow]

There is another scenario though too. Very often - a person won't accept your forgiveness because they won't forgive themselves. They understand full well what they did and self-torment themselves because of it. In this case, a relationship still cannot be fully mended even though you've forgiven them.

That is a very important part of it. That is the source of guilt over things, and some people dwell on their own faults without being able to admit that it's water under the bridge. It is a reciprical thing, and I understand that...and it's easy to say that something is forgiven, but the truth of forgiveness is in the emotion involved, and that's something that is unique to every circumstance.

 

[Akhenaten]

.
There is self-delusion, that's all. She can't comprehend the absurdities of her position, therefore no error on her part.
She is to be pitied.

Yes, I think I'd go along with that.

I'm not really posting for KK's sake, as I've never received a response from her and believe she ignores me. I'm just here representing an alternative belief system for the sake of the discussion, which has intrinsic merit, I hope.

Cheers and Thanks,

Dave (not a pharaoh)

for

The Aten (not a god)

 

[Akhenaten]

It's not necessary - it's just incomplete if the person being forgiven doesn't accept your forgiveness. You've done your part, they haven't done theirs - and the relationship can never be fully mended until they have. And to be fair - if you never offer them the chance they may be honestly unaware any damage was ever done.

There is another scenario though too. Very often - a person won't accept your forgiveness because they won't forgive themselves. They understand full well what they did and self-torment themselves because of it. In this case, a relationship still cannot be fully mended even though you've forgiven them.

I think I'd say I've been on both sides of that coin at different times.

It's tough, but I it think has more potential to be healed than your first scenario, especially with one's partner.

My experience of that is ever positive.


Cheers,

Dave

 

[Marcus]

That sort of thing is getting a good going over in this thread

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

That thread is making many of the same noises as this one, so you have to keep close tabs on which one you're posting to.


Cheers.

Dave

I'm sure Doc has a creative defense for the plagarism marduk refered to, but Doc is just so long winded that i don't pay much attention to his posts despite reading the thread a lot.

 

[Belz...]

So since you're replying to her, you must not be interested in any sort of useful discussion. Okay, fair enough, you can ignore what I said then.

I'm trying to make meaningful statements but my hopes of her understanding (or reading) any of it are very small. Hence the frustration. Plus I have this tendency to return insult in kind.

 

[H'ethetheth]

I'm trying to make meaningful statements but my hopes of her understanding (or reading) any of it are very small. Hence the frustration. Plus I have this tendency to return insult in kind.

I guess you realize this tendency will probably not make her read your posts more, let alone understand them, which will increase your frustration. It's a circular thing.

Anyway, carry on then.

 

[six7s]

I'm trying to make meaningful statements but my hopes of her understanding (or reading) any of it are very small. Hence the frustration. Plus I have this tendency to return insult in kind.

Belz..., this is a critical thinking forum

You make me think

Please, carry on regardless of how (in)effective you may feel with regard to lost causes like kk and DOC

 

[Moochie]

Fixed it for you.

But this is a part of the lie, tsig. And it's how they hook you. The run a long loop out and use your own ego against you.

I know this. I was once like Kathy. Trust me, I have far too much experience with this crowd. And if I'm losing it on occasion with her, you now know why.

Those who have been abused make the best converts for this kind of psychotic mob. You already have a low enough image of yourself that it can be turned against you. "They think I'm worth loving!" you say to yourself. "They think I can be a good person!" They take that and twist it against you, only to subject you to the same sort of mental rape that got you into that kind of thinking in the first place. It's an evil, twisted, hateful game they play, and it's not about saving anyone. It's about power, it's about money, and it's about submission to people who have no right to lead.

It takes time to thread your way through this, to learn what this is truly about. You sometimes have to go through it before you figure it out. But once you have, you then have to figure out how to fight the rage that comes with it, because, dammit, I DID NOT WANT TO BE LIED TO AGAIN!

And they KNOW it's a lie. They know damned good and well it's a lie. Every time someone like Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson, or even Jerry Falwell, any time they cue the cameraman, they know that what they are saying is an outright LIE. What they want is the money, the power, the fame. And they are deceiving you so they can have it. They are no different than Bernie Madoff; they just have the veneer of respectability that we have given them, because they are "Doing God's work."

Bullsh**.

What you describe, RT, reads every bit like the typical cult M.O. -- the "bliss-bombing" and all the rest. It's mind-control/brainwashing at its simplest and most effective: take someone with little or zero self-esteem and hug them, tell them that they're all right and that they are lovable and they ought to throw in with your crowd because it has "The Truth."

Unfortunately, the seemingly hapless "mark" soaks up the bliss-bombing and retires that part of the brain that processes horse manure. But all the "love" and "acceptance" isn't free; there's an agenda and it is applied forcefully. Pretty soon all your "friends" are people like you, and everybody else in the world is "unsaved" or just doesn't get "it." You not only burn bridges but totally destroy them, because to you, your "new life" and "new friends" are worth it.

Pretty soon, you're "donating" some or all of your income to the "church." You are persuaded that freedoms you once believed in and accepted are now "the work of the Devil." You are cajoled into aligning your views with those of the cult leader/pastor, resulting in your 360-degree turnaround on almost every social and political issue you might have held dear in your "other life." But hey, these people "love" and "respect" me, so I can't let them down.

And on it goes. Rationality and reason become "evil" words, designed to distract you from your "real" purpose on the planet: to "witness" to the "witless" and "save souls for the lord."

I have every reason to think that one day KK will awaken from this trance. Let's be ready to give her the assistance she will no doubt require when that day arrives.

Meanwhile, let's keep the discussion civil, and respectful of the person posting as KK, but don't give an inch where her manifest BS is concerned, because this isn't her writing, but that of Chuck or Christian Dude, or whoever lives deeply in her heart and mind right now. It can't be "Jesus" or "God," because KK knows, as we all know, that these are caricatures of common human decency created and maintained by humans for the purpose of gaining and maintaining control over other humans just like her.


M.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Pretty soon, you're "donating" some or all of your income to the "church." You are persuaded that freedoms you once believed in and accepted are now "the work of the Devil." You are cajoled into aligning your views with those of the cult leader/pastor, resulting in your 360-degree turnaround on almost every social and political issue you might have held dear in your "other life." But hey, these people "love" and "respect" me, so I can't let them down.

All good writing, but if I may nitpick a little pet peeve of mine... 360º is 'full circle'. I think you're better off using 180º.

 

[six7s]

All good writing, but if I may nitpick a little pet peeve of mine... 360º is 'full circle'. I think you're better off using 180º.

Hey, go easy! Moochie is only an Aussie, after all... If asked how to make a u-turn on the Bruce Highway, the answer might well be 'put your tongue in her ear'

 

[Moochie]

All good writing, but if I may nitpick a little pet peeve of mine... 360º is 'full circle'. I think you're better off using 180º.

Yeah, depends on if you see a circle or spiral. Thanks.


M.

 

[Moochie]

Hey, go easy! Moochie is only an Aussie, after all... If asked how to make a u-turn on the Bruce Highway, the answer might well be 'put your tongue in her ear'

You, sir, are admonished to keep my fantasy life out of this discussion. Thank you.


M.

 

[tsig]

Yes, I think I'd go along with that.

I'm not really posting for KK's sake, as I've never received a response from her and believe she ignores me. I'm just here representing an alternative belief system for the sake of the discussion, which has intrinsic merit, I hope.

Cheers and Thanks,

Dave (not a pharaoh)

for

The Aten (not a god)

I spent a decade in Texas one summer and I dedicated each day to the Aten(Sun).

 

[Fireshadow]

I spent a decade in Texas one summer and I dedicated each day to the Aten(Sun).

That's a long summer...

 

[six7s]

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
Some Famous Dead Guy

 

[Fireshadow]

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
Some Famous Dead Guy

I thought it was Ford Prefect.

 

[six7s]

I thought it was Ford Prefect.

Very, very close

Sorry to break it you, but FP isn't actually real