The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems

[H'ethetheth]

So it's not a lie if the person saying it doesn't know it is ?

Exactly! In that case it is either a mistake or a delusion.

ETA: And considering how inflammatory Kathy's been, please.

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that countering insults with more insults was a useful way of discussing things. Not to mention that all the insults I've seen Kathy make simply follow from her warped world view and do not seem to be intended as insults. It is pointless to insult Kathy back if she doesn't even realize she might insult people by blaming them for their own illness etc. That is, it's pointless if you're interested in a discussion.

Kathy does not think she's telling the truth. She refuses to see any evidence which would show her the truth.

For example:

KK:

Truth is where evidence comes from, not where belief leads to.

Ah, but when our belief leads us to the truth that can save a persons eternal soul, now there's where you'll find the evidence. God is a rewarder of those who seek him.

There is no honesty in this response.


Waenre

Well, either that or you understimate the depth of the delusion. I vote for the second. It is clear that she refuses to see any evidence to show her the truth, because it's obvious from that quote that she judges the evidence by how well it fits her beliefs. Though perhaps infuriating in its ignorance, I don't see how it constitutes lying.

There's no thoughts in this response. She's just parrotting the party line.

Quite possible as well.

 

[Marduk]

I'm not sure the later individual miracles measured up to the rain of superpowers jesus exhibited. But as a point of interest, do any of the other miracles involve people actually doing things, creating food or wine, walking on water, ect.? Healing I can see, that is a common enough claim. But most miricles seem to involve things done to the person, stigmata appearing, signs in the heavens, ect.

all the miracles claimed by Jesus were performed earlier by earlier Gods, food from nothing, bringing back the dead, water into wine etc etc in that sense Jesus was as much a copycat as his old man who also claimed to have done things that had already been done. The flood for instance, the creation of man, the creation of heaven, the creation of the earth, all claimed millenia before the bible was written. In some cases the biblical narrative has clearly been plagiarised from earlier texts belonging to so called pagan religions, this a case in point for the flood (Akkadian) and the fall of satan (Assyrian) and the Tower of Babel (Babylonian).

funny isn't all these sources were available in Babylon where the Jews were exiled under Nebuchadrezzar II in the sixth century bce and all those stories appeared later in the Babylonian Talmud. This is not a secret to Judaism, it is an accepted fact. This is also an established fact that a new religion overlays its dogma on the former religion to enable conversion to occour that much easier

This does not speak to me of divine authorship, it speaks to me of plagiarism.

 

[Akhenaten]

Well, either that or you understimate the depth of the delusion. I vote for the second. It is clear that she refuses to see any evidence to show her the truth, because it's obvious from that quote that she judges the evidence by how well it fits her beliefs. Though perhaps infuriating in its ignorance, I don't see how it constitutes lying.

I think you're right. It's my lack of a better understanding that makes me sometimes believe that lying and delusion are interchangeable. My better self knows that this is not the case.

Your words serve well to remind me. Thank you.


Cheers,

Dave


ETA:


Happy Birthday Marduk!

 

[Moochie]

It must be a god thang...

www.lectionarystudies.comLectionary Bible Studies and Sermons

It seems reasonable for the Supreme Being to be an equal-opportunity comer.


M.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

Did he forgive us all or not? make up your mind. If he did then there's nothing to receive, if we have to receive it then he didn't forgive us all.

Actually - I've forgiven people who've done hurt and they refused to accept it because they don't think they did anything wrong. Our relationship is at a stand still and / or non-existent now. Forgiveness is a two-way process not a one way process.

 

[Akhenaten]

all the miracles claimed by Jesus were performed earlier by earlier Gods, food from nothing, bringing back the dead, water into wine etc etc in that sense Jesus was as much a copycat as his old man who also claimed to have done things that had already been done. The flood for instance, the creation of man, the creation of heaven, the creation of the earth, all claimed millenia before the bible was written. In some cases the biblical narrative has clearly been plagiarised from earlier texts belonging to so called pagan religions, this a case in point for the flood (Akkadian) and the fall of satan (Assyrian) and the Tower of Babel (Babylonian).

funny isn't all these sources were available in Babylon where the Jews were exiled under Nebuchadrezzar II in the sixth century bce and all those stories appeared later in the Babylonian Talmud. This is not a secret to Judaism, it is an accepted fact. This is also an established fact that a new religion overlays its dogma on the former religion to enable conversion to occour that much easier

This does not speak to me of divine authorship, it speaks to me of plagiarism.

That sort of thing is getting a good going over in this thread

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

That thread is making many of the same noises as this one, so you have to keep close tabs on which one you're posting to.


Cheers.

Dave


ETA:

Actually - I've forgiven people who've done hurt and they refused to accept it because they don't think they did anything wrong. Our relationship is at a stand still and / or non-existent now. Forgiveness is a two-way process not a one way process.

Seconded.

 

[supercorgi]

Yes he did but if you want to be saved you must first come to the cross and see Jesus bore your sins on that cross. Then if you confess and ask him to forgive you he will. He will not force you but he hopes all come to repentance.

So he didn't actually forgive anyone until they come and grovel before him? Really forgiving that Jesus guy! Just goes to show that Jesus holds grudges and holds them for a really, really long time.

Hellfire!​

 

[Ladewig]

all the miracles claimed by Jesus were performed earlier by earlier Gods, food from nothing, bringing back the dead, water into wine etc etc in that sense Jesus was as much a copycat as his old man who also claimed to have done things that had already been done. The flood for instance, the creation of man, the creation of heaven, the creation of the earth, all claimed millenia before the bible was written. In some cases the biblical narrative has clearly been plagiarised from earlier texts belonging to so called pagan religions, this a case in point for the flood (Akkadian) and the fall of satan (Assyrian) and the Tower of Babel (Babylonian).

funny isn't all these sources were available in Babylon where the Jews were exiled under Nebuchadrezzar II in the sixth century bce and all those stories appeared later in the Babylonian Talmud. This is not a secret to Judaism, it is an accepted fact. This is also an established fact that a new religion overlays its dogma on the former religion to enable conversion to occour that much easier

This does not speak to me of divine authorship, it speaks to me of plagiarism.

Ah, but if you were a truly-saved fundie, you could claim that those preexisting stories didn't really happen. Rather they were the result of the devil planting these stories in previous civilizations so that when 21st century scholars looked back, they would falsely claim that the Bible is plagiarized.

 

[Belz...]

Exactly! In that case it is either a mistake or a delusion.

Well, under that definition I agree.

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that countering insults with more insults was a useful way of discussing things.

Sometimes it is, but I digress. Actually, there is NO useful way of discussing things with KK.

Not to mention that all the insults I've seen Kathy make simply follow from her warped world view and do not seem to be intended as insults.

So not only are lies not lies when you don't know they're lies but insults are not insults when they're not intended as such ?

 

[Roadtoad]

Actually - I've forgiven people who've done hurt and they refused to accept it because they don't think they did anything wrong. Our relationship is at a stand still and / or non-existent now. Forgiveness is a two-way process not a one way process.

I find myself gaining a degree of respect for you. You're not like Kathy, spewing the usual pseudo-spiritual drivel.

And, yes, I've been through that myself.

Having said that, it helps to understand, at least from my own perspective, that without that element of acceptance that you have done harm by your actions, whether intentional or not, there can't be forgiveness. The whole concept of forgiveness is two-way.

 

[I Ratant]

Kathy does not think she's telling the truth. She refuses to see any evidence which would show her the truth.

For example:

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy
Ah, but when our belief leads us to the truth that can save a persons eternal soul, now there's where you'll find the evidence. God is a rewarder of those who seek him.

There is no honesty in this response.


Waenre

.
There is self-delusion, that's all. She can't comprehend the absurdities of her position, therefore no error on her part.
She is to be pitied.

 

[I Ratant]

all the miracles claimed by Jesus were performed earlier by earlier Gods, food from nothing, bringing back the dead, water into wine etc etc in that sense Jesus was as much a copycat as his old man who also claimed to have done things that had already been done. The flood for instance, the creation of man, the creation of heaven, the creation of the earth, all claimed millenia before the bible was written. In some cases the biblical narrative has clearly been plagiarised from earlier texts belonging to so called pagan religions, this a case in point for the flood (Akkadian) and the fall of satan (Assyrian) and the Tower of Babel (Babylonian).

funny isn't all these sources were available in Babylon where the Jews were exiled under Nebuchadrezzar II in the sixth century bce and all those stories appeared later in the Babylonian Talmud. This is not a secret to Judaism, it is an accepted fact. This is also an established fact that a new religion overlays its dogma on the former religion to enable conversion to occour that much easier

This does not speak to me of divine authorship, it speaks to me of plagiarism.

.
Well Yeah, those "additions" did juice up a ripping good yarn!

 

[H'ethetheth]

Well, under that definition I agree.

Good, though I'm now wondering what definition you use.

Sometimes it is, but I digress. Actually, there is NO useful way of discussing things with KK.

So since you're replying to her, you must not be interested in any sort of useful discussion. Okay, fair enough, you can ignore what I said then.

So not only are lies not lies when you don't know they're lies but insults are not insults when they're not intended as such ?

No, that's not what I wrote. I said I think it's rather pointless to insult someone who inadvertently insults you if you want to discuss something with this person; that's not the same thing at all.

 

[tsig]

In other words, he hasn't forgiven everyone.

He only forgives when you're down on your knees. Then you hear a divine voice "Hey, while you're down there...".

 

[Roadtoad]

He only forgives when you're down on your knees. Then you hear a divine voice "Hey, while you're down there...".

I thought that was a priest.

 

[tsig]

Yes he did but if you want to be saved you must first come to the cross and see Jesus bore your sins on that cross. Then if you confess and ask him to forgive you he will. He will not force you but he hopes all come to repentance.

Anyone who lets someone be punished for what they did is a coward.

 

[Roadtoad]

Anyone who lets someone else be punished for what they did is a coward.

Fixed it for you.

But this is a part of the lie, tsig. And it's how they hook you. The run a long loop out and use your own ego against you.

I know this. I was once like Kathy. Trust me, I have far too much experience with this crowd. And if I'm losing it on occasion with her, you now know why.

Those who have been abused make the best converts for this kind of psychotic mob. You already have a low enough image of yourself that it can be turned against you. "They think I'm worth loving!" you say to yourself. "They think I can be a good person!" They take that and twist it against you, only to subject you to the same sort of mental rape that got you into that kind of thinking in the first place. It's an evil, twisted, hateful game they play, and it's not about saving anyone. It's about power, it's about money, and it's about submission to people who have no right to lead.

It takes time to thread your way through this, to learn what this is truly about. You sometimes have to go through it before you figure it out. But once you have, you then have to figure out how to fight the rage that comes with it, because, dammit, I DID NOT WANT TO BE LIED TO AGAIN!

And they KNOW it's a lie. They know damned good and well it's a lie. Every time someone like Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson, or even Jerry Falwell, any time they cue the cameraman, they know that what they are saying is an outright LIE. What they want is the money, the power, the fame. And they are deceiving you so they can have it. They are no different than Bernie Madoff; they just have the veneer of respectability that we have given them, because they are "Doing God's work."

Bullsh**.

 

[tsig]

I thought that was a priest.

Priests are "altos christos" or "other christs" so they'll do as a stand in.*

*RC belief system

 

[Roadtoad]

Priests are "altos christos" or "other christs" so they'll do as a stand in.*

*RC belief system

Touche, sir.

 

[tsig]

Fixed it for you.

But this is a part of the lie, tsig. And it's how they hook you. The run a long loop out and use your own ego against you.

I know this. I was once like Kathy. Trust me, I have far too much experience with this crowd. And if I'm losing it on occasion with her, you now know why.

Those who have been abused make the best converts for this kind of psychotic mob. You already have a low enough image of yourself that it can be turned against you. "They think I'm worth loving!" you say to yourself. "They think I can be a good person!" They take that and twist it against you, only to subject you to the same sort of mental rape that got you into that kind of thinking in the first place. It's an evil, twisted, hateful game they play, and it's not about saving anyone. It's about power, it's about money, and it's about submission to people who have no right to lead.

It takes time to thread your way through this, to learn what this is truly about. You sometimes have to go through it before you figure it out. But once you have, you then have to figure out how to fight the rage that comes with it, because, dammit, I DID NOT WANT TO BE LIED TO AGAIN!

And they KNOW it's a lie. They know damned good and well it's a lie. Every time someone like Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson, or even Jerry Falwell, any time they cue the cameraman, they know that what they are saying is an outright LIE. What they want is the money, the power, the fame. And they are deceiving you so they can have it. They are no different than Bernie Madoff; they just have the veneer of respectability that we have given them, because they are "Doing God's work."

Bullsh**.

Just don't get so carried away that you forget to be civil.