Red Envelope Day to protest abortion

[jj]

Pro-life does NOT equal "anti-women". But, "pro-abortion" DOES equal "anti-life".

you.

"Pro life" requires exactly that a woman be a slave to another being. No more, no less.

If that's not 'anti-women' tell me what is, please.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I don't mean to derail the thread by asking RandFan this, but it seems it has already delved into a debate about abortion rather than the red envelopes. If it will be a problem, feel free to PM me with your opinion RandFan.

I guess the choices are people can continue the derail and I can start reporting off topic posts, or they can go to PM/start a new thread/bump an old thread more generally about abortion.

 

[The Nimble Pianist]

I guess the choices are people can continue the derail and I can start reporting off topic posts, or they can go to PM/start a new thread/bump an old thread more generally about abortion.

Fair enough.

As to the red envelopes, I say we e-mail bomb the president as a means to stick up for all those poor, innocent saplings which were murdered in order to make empty, red envelopes whose fate inevitably will be in the round archive below the president's desk.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

 

[Wally]

I When abortion procedures fail, and babies are born alive - Obama believes (and voted this way in the Illinois legislature) that it's okay to discard a live baby whom the mother intended to abort.

This is a Fox"news" Rovian lie. He vote against that bill because there was already legislation on the books that made this illegal. The bill was unnecessary grandstanding by the anti choice crowd.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Mmmmm... I don't think so. There are plenty of choices that can be made *prior to* conception.

That said, however, if genetic testing indicates a baby with serious problems... well *I* would still choose "life", but I don't think I would blame anyone who disagrees with me. Similar for rape.

Interesting... so you have an "understanding" that deformed children and children of rape are less valuable lives than those that are not deformed or conceived from rape.

 

[RandFan]

... So you still advocate a pro-life position with respect to the other two trimesters?

I don't mean that to sound condescending. Personally, I do my best to stay out of abortion topics. I hate the fact that there really is no black and white, cut and dry, objective answer to the issue, and that no matter what one's opinion is, it will inevitably be steeped in some philosophy or another.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions about where a woman's choice ends and a fetus' rights begin as I'm utterly lost as to how I should form my opinion.

I've no problem offering an opinion.

It's a tough question and one I'm not so presumptuous as to assert that I know what the answer is or that I evangelically hold pro or con positions on. I don't see those who disagree with me as evil or villainous.

When exactly does night begin and day end? The fact is we don't know (see Loki's Paradox). Some people believe that a woman should, throughout her pregnancy, have a right to abort on demand. I'm uncomfortable with that. When I first saw my child via ultrasound it was a very compelling moment and I could never after that simply rule that an unborn infant was not a person. Abortion in the first trimester does not bother me. Abortion in the last does. When exactly is the dividing line? I don't know. I like the law as it is now. The earliest brain response in a fetus by the most advanced techniques demonstrate neurological activity no earlier than 28 weeks and even that is but rudimentary stimulus response.

Again, I'm not dogmatic about the issues. I would be very troubled by late term abortions for healthy unborn infants but I wouldn't necessarily take a stand that it is murder.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I guess the choices are people can continue the derail and I can start reporting off topic posts, or they can go to PM/start a new thread/bump an old thread more generally about abortion.

Ahem.

If the red envelope discussion was an abortion from the start then lets let this thread die.

 

[AkuManiMani]

The thing I was wondering when I heard about this is why didn't they do this while President Bush, ostensibly a pro-lifer, was still in office instead of waiting until now?

'Cause Dubya didn't stand for 'change', I suppose

 

[kurious_kathy]

That was my number one reason for ceasing to be a pro-life advocate in the first trimester. Why are we concerned about something without thoughts and is incapable of feeling pain?

Oh so you out right admit you disagree with what the Bible says about all life starts from conception? Well as of over 4 years ago now when Jesus opened my eyes I now agree with scripture that from the moment of conception it is a life God cares about and all the aborted babies therefore have been murdered.

And this Red envelope idea was a good chance for us pro-lifers to send a message to the president that we think abortion is wrong and we certainly do not want our tax dollars to help pay for them! If women/and men do not want an unwanted pregnancy then they should be more responsible to avoid this problem and stop using it as a form of birth control, abortion is just plain EVIL. I regret my descision years ago when I was still lost in my sinful lifestyle. But this is a big problem in our society. God help this nation repent!

 

[Mr Clingford]

Oh so you out right admit you disagree with what the Bible says about all life starts from conception?

Where does the Bible say this?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Where does the Bible say this?

Psalm 139: 13-16
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Psalm 139: 13-16
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

Thanks for the quote - i wondered if you were thinking of this passage. But how does this tell us that life begins at conception?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Thanks for the quote - i wondered if you were thinking of this passage. But how does this tell us that life begins at conception?

When I was woven together speaks pretty clearly of it. So does when I was made in secret. Also you knit me together in my mothers womb, and your eyes saw my unformed body, Wouldn't you agree? The whole passage seems to make this point clear.

 

[quixotecoyote]

When I was woven togehter speaks pretty clearly of it. So does when I was made in secret. Also you knit me together in my mothers womb, Wouldn't you agree?

I fully agree that we should ban abortions of thread and/or knitting based pregnancies immediately!

I saw Coraline! That ****'s freaky!

 

[Mr Clingford]

Psalm 139: 13-16
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

When I was woven together speaks pretty clearly of it. So does when I was made in secret. Also you knit me together in my mothers womb, and your eyes saw my unformed body, Wouldn't you agree? The whole passage seems to make this point clear.

'Knit together' in mother's womb does not address, though, when a human life begins - it used to be thought by Christians that it was at the quickening, when the baby first moved, that the soul was implanted.

'I was woven together in the depths of the earth' - this is obviously not literally true and contradicts the 'mother's womb' idea. Psalms are poetical forms making use of a lot of metaphor, as is made clear here. The psalm speaks powerfully of God the creator caring for his amazing creation. I don't understand how these verses say that life begins at conception.

 

[kerikiwi]

I don't understand how these verses say that life begins at conception.

Nor I. In fact this bit

All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

suggests that life begins before conception.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Nor I. In fact this bit

All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

suggests that life begins before conception.

Yep, we were known before we were even created. So why then do people value life so little anymore if all life has value especially in Gods eyes?

I really hope those envelopes were opened and the message on the inside of them is heard!
This envelope represents one child who died in abortion.
It is empty because that life was unable to offer anything to the world.

 

[geni]

I don't know anybody who's "pro-abortion."

You should get out more. Then of there is the neo-eugenics mob.

Pro-choice is a simply a way of recognizing that every_pregnant_woman has the right

So called rights don't work like that.

 

[kerikiwi]

Yep, we were known before we were even created.

Known by whom? And what is the basis of this 'knowledge'? Please don't cite the bible as support, because there is no evidence that the bible is the word of any deity.