Molten Steel

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BigAl said:
Having selected and purchased several UPS systems with price tags up to about a quarter million bucks, I don't know where I would find a corporate battery UPS with anything but lead-acid batteries.

Lead-acid in this application is ubiquitous. It it wasn't, I would have specified.

The fact that someone reinforced the floor system sure looks like they put in a large, heavy UPS system. That would have lead-acid batteries.

This was the corner of the floor where we saw molten metal flow from.

Every PBX in WTC would have has a lead-acid UPS. You don't have a clue what I am talking about.
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And I wonder how much sulfuric acid is in that UPS. That area would be past the boiling point of sulfuric acid, wonder what the volume of sulfuric acid vapor would be.
 
Toke said:
Thanks, there it was.
Lead batteries are damaged by deep discharge, Ni-Cad require it.
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There are lead-acid batteries designed for deep discharge.

UPS batteries are pretty special but the technology is 100+ years old. Telephone exchanges classically had enough of the same kind of batteries to run for a days in a blackout.

UPS batteries have to last for years on floating charge and yet be capable of full-capacity discharge when needed. That might be once a year or less. For a well-run data center, a UPS cut-over test is done 2-4 times a year. Batteries are run down to 3/4 remaining capacity in the test, at least when I did it.

Here is a large UPS battery room.

 
Egil said:
And I wonder how much sulfuric acid is in that UPS. That area would be past the boiling point of sulfuric acid, wonder what the volume of sulfuric acid vapor would be.
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Imagine 100 tons of angry aluminum in the form of a 757 carrying oxygen generators crashing into 10 tons of batteries containing lead and sulfuric acid and having the batteries short out into the metal mess with the power of an arc furnace.

What happens when sulfuric acid hits concrete?
 
Tandem Thinking said:
You have just been told that no one except you is claiming that that particular beam melted, and yet you use it as evidence for melting steel.
Is Microsoft Paint too difficult for you?
Where is the melted part of that beam?
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You are ignoring the point [as usual] with irrelevant questions.

Abolhassan Astameh saw melted girders at the WTC.

Do you understand that melted means turned in to liquid?
 
BigAl said:
I recall why Ni-Cad batteries are non-existent for UPS applications: Ni-Cad batteries stink for floating-charge applications. They lose capacity and die. A UPS is trickle-charged all the time and that would kill a Ni-Cad battery. Properly designed and maintained lead-acid batteries work for years.

Having selected and purchased several UPS systems with price tags up to about a quarter million bucks, I don't know where I would find a corporate battery UPS with anything but lead-acid batteries.

Lead-acid in this application is ubiquitous. It it wasn't, I would have specified.

The fact that someone reinforced the floor system sure looks like they put in a large, heavy UPS system. That would have lead-acid batteries.

This was the corner of the floor where we saw molten metal flow from.

Every PBX in WTC would have has a lead-acid UPS.
Click to expand...
In solar applications they recommend nickel cadmium batteries because they are more reliable, last longer an can be trickle charged from photovoltaic panels.

Bottom line, you don't know for sure what kind of batteries they used.

Be that as it may;

Whatever the falling molten metal was, it was yellow hot.

Depending on which color chart you use, the molten metal was in the 1000-1400°C range.
The area was a jumble of airplane and batteries. Lead would tend to be at the bottom of the pile, not the top.
Most of the heat from any fire would not be applied to the lead [or nickel-cadmium].
Even burning at 1000°C, the fires could not melt tons of metal in 45 minutes.
 
Christopher7 said:
Do you believe Mr. Astaneh or not?
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Blacksmithing

Forging a pass through

Based on my own knowledge of metal and the fact that he says he saw melted steel still retaining the shape of a girder which is an absurd proposition from my perspective as I know of no steel that can turn into a liquid...

The answer is a simple no.

If liquid steel or iron can retain its shape, tell me why an ice-cup left out in the sun on a plate does not remain a cube.
 
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Egil said:
Sulfuric acid erodes the concrete through chemical reaction, I keep thinking the byproducts are calcium salts.
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There are no examples of anything like what you propose. This intergranular melting has never happened before or since except as the result of thermi[a]te. What you are proposing is speculation, not science.


You are still ignoring the fact that intergeanular melting and corrosion were the result of temperatures approaching 1000°C.
Only well ventilated fires can burn at 1000°C. You can't have well ventilated fires burning for weeks with all that water being applied.
 
Christopher7 said:
There are no examples of anything like what you propose. This intergranular melting has never happened before or since except as the result of thermi[a]te. What you are proposing is speculation, not science.


You are still ignoring the fact that intergeanular melting and corrosion were the result of temperatures approaching 1000°C.
Only well ventilated fires can burn at 1000°C. You can't have well ventilated fires burning for weeks with all that water being applied.
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How many mistakes can one put in one paragraph? Christopher is going for a record.

My university engineering education, dusty as it is and my avocational metalwork knowledge tells me that Christpher is making stuff up as he types.
 
Egil said:
Blacksmithing

Forging a pass through

Based on my own knowledge of metal and the fact that he says he saw melted steel still retaining the shape of a girder which is an absurd proposition from my perspective as I know of no steel that can turn into a liquid...

The answer is a simple no.

If liquid steel or iron can retain its shape, tell me why an ice-cup left out in the sun on a plate does not remain a cube.
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Your denial approach assumes the entire girder was heated to the same temperature. This results in your justification for saying Mr. Astaneh was wrong, even though he inspected the girder and you are looking at a photo.

You are ignoring the possibility that the partially melted beam was the result of molten metal from steel columns that had been melted with thermate and dripped onto the girder in the debris pile.

Do not try to change the subject by asking me how.
 
BigAl said:
How many mistakes can one put in one paragraph? Christopher is going for a record.

My university engineering education, dusty as it is and my avocational metalwork knowledge tells me that Christpher is making stuff up as he types.
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You are babbling.

State specifically what I said that is wrong.
 
Christopher7 said:
In solar applications they recommend nickel cadmium batteries because they are more reliable, last longer an can be trickle charged from photovoltaic panels.
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Ni-Cads would be appropriate for a solar system that charged each day and fully discharges each night. That's nice, but that's not how batteries in a UPS system are used.

Phrases like "more reliable" and "last longer" are imprecise and sound like you've been reading the sales brochure instead of actually doing anything with big batteries.
 
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BigAl said:
I can't find an example of Ni-Cads in Solar applications. Maybe one exists. Please point me to one.

I suspect you've confused Ni-Cad with Lithium-ion, which is very appropriate but much more expensive than lead-acid is for the same capacity.

When I google for solar power and ni-cad, I find pages like this one that explain why Ni-Cad isn't appropriate for the reasons I stated.

http://www.solar-electric.com/deep_cycle_batteries/deep_cycle_battery_faq.htm#Major Battery Types
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How did I know you would ignore this part? :rolleyes:

Be that as it may;

Whatever the falling molten metal was, it was yellow hot.

Depending on which color chart you use, the molten metal was in the 1000-1400°C range.
The area was a jumble of airplane and batteries. Lead would tend to be at the bottom of the pile, not the top.
Most of the heat from any fire would not be applied to the lead [or nickel-cadmium].
Even burning at 1000°C, the fires could not melt tons of metal in 45 minutes.
 
Christopher7 said:
You are ignoring the point [as usual] with irrelevant questions.

Abolhassan Astameh saw melted girders at the WTC.

Do you understand that melted means turned in to liquid?
Click to expand...

Do you understand that the picture you posted of a "melted beam" is not in the liquid phase?

Christopher7 said:
There are no examples of anything like what you propose. This intergranular melting has never happened before or since except as the result of thermi[a]te.
Click to expand...

And here is where the debate ends for me.
Thanks for playing our game today, and welcome to ignore.
 
Christopher7 said:
There are no examples of anything like what you propose. This intergranular melting has never happened before or since except as the result of thermi[a]te. What you are proposing is speculation, not science.
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Thats a lie, there have been experiments to reproduce what happened


C7 said:
You are still ignoring the fact that intergeanular melting and corrosion were the result of temperatures approaching 1000°C.
Only well ventilated fires can burn at 1000°C. You can't have well ventilated fires burning for weeks with all that water being applied.
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700 to 800 deg C according to NIST

PS What solar charged batteries were in the WTC?
 
Tandem Thinking said:
Do you understand that the picture you posted of a "melted beam" is not in the liquid phase?
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Of course not silly. :D
The girder partially melted in the pile.

Do you know of any experiments to reproduce what happened?

NIST didn't do any. They didn't even analyze the partially melted beam from WTC 7
 
C7 said:
You are still ignoring the fact that intergeanular melting and corrosion were the result of temperatures approaching 1000°C.
Only well ventilated fires can burn at 1000°C. You can't have well ventilated fires burning for weeks with all that water being applied.
Click to expand...
Tandem Thinking said:
And here is where the debate ends for me.
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That's because you cannot explain the high temperatures.

Thermite is a possible explanation.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
 
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