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Hardfire: Physics of 9/11

psikeyhackr, I suggest that you review Ryan's presentation slides if you're having trouble understanding the physics. I'm sure Ryan will be glad to respond if you have questions about the actual calculations and models he presented.

Besides the 10,000 ton airliner I don't have a problem with that first video.

It is just kind of funny that no one commented on that in 10 days of 160 responses with all of the meticulous scientific observers on this site.

psik
 
Ron misspoke when he said "tens of thousands of tons." He chided himself about it on the telephone with me afterwards.

Most people were able to figure this out by themselves, but I'm glad to help you through your misunderstanding if you were unable to.

The actual masses of the World Trade Center impact aircraft were closer to 150 tons, not thousands or tens of thousands. If you require a more accurate estimate, I can help you find one.

Thanks for your interest.
 
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Oh, it's all his fault. :D

You didn't catch it.

psik

Perhaps to save you time, I should alert you that Ron also once spoke my name when he meant to say Dr. Griffin's. It comes at 3:31-33 in the second program. You'll note I was egregiously remiss in not correcting him then, either.

I believe there's one or two other incidences of a similar trivial misstatement, but I can't think of them offhand.

None of this strikes me as interesting, but if this fastidious attention to minute detail helps you understand the errors of the Truth Movement, then the shows will have fulfilled my intent. Happy scrutinizing!
 
Besides the 10,000 ton airliner I don't have a problem with that first video.

It is just kind of funny that no one commented on that in 10 days of 160 responses with all of the meticulous scientific observers on this site.

psik
You don't understand. No one here thinks the planes weighed tens of thousands of tons. No one her thinks that Ron thinks that. That figure was used in no calculations or analysis. Please join us in recognizing when simple misstatements aren't worthy of comment.
 
Ryan,

A nit and a pertinent point...

First, the nit:

Now, when we change the angle of attack, we not only change CL, we also change the drag coefficient -- but only of the wings. This is the induced drag, and therefore it actually goes down as the aircraft moves faster. The bluff-body drag, i.e. the parasite drag of the rest of the aircraft, should stay more or less the same, until angle of attack gets so extreme that our assumptions don't hold any more.

Not quite. As you increase the AoA, the angle between the "waterline" (direction the nose is pointed) and the true "velocity vector" increases. This means that the whole airplane is plowing thru the air at an increased angle, thereby increasing the parasitic drag of the fuselage & horizontal stabilizer as well.

Nonetheless, this component is usually folded into the "induced drag", since it simplifies the understanding of effects for the pilot into "them factors that are affected by AoA vs. them factors that ain't".

<snip>
Now, to address Mr. Lear, and Cap'n Bob's confusion about the talk -- the argument put forth is that AA 175 couldn't reach the estimated 542 MPH at impact because of parasite drag. Again, this is obviously false, because Egypt Air 990, another Boeing 767, went faster at lower altitude, so it can be done.

I've heard Lear also claim that Ground Effect would prevent the plane from flying that fast & that low. This is, of course, silly. It is instructive that the new jumbo jets nearly eliminate the the effect of - and the pilot's feeling of - ground effect by adjusting trim. That is, you can "trim your way thru ground effect". It is hardly an effect strong enough that a small yoke input couldn't easily overcome.

A second, obscure point that I've heard is that you can "speed" your way thru ground effect. That is, you can out-run it by flying fast. The fact is that VERY few pilots ever have the opportunity, much less the suicidal inclination, to do this. Only those military pilots who practice high speed, under the radar incursions get a chance to check this out.

Since ground effect is really caused by a decrease in downwash from wingtip vortices (well explained here: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml ), it makes sense that the real cause of this reduction in perceived ground effect is, again, the reduction in the wingtip vortices due to the reduction in AoA.

[Is that enough "reduction" for ya?]

Excellent shows, by the way. I'm looking forward to the third.

tom
 
Ryan,

At the early stages of collapse, the columns above and below are about the same strength, and failure favors the columns below for reasons I already indicated.

After a few floors worth of collapse, the columns above are hitting the debris in between, opposing only the momentum of the upper block, whereas the columns below oppose the momentum of the upper block and the accumulated debris. So shortly into the collapse, the lower structure suffers much larger hits. This is enough to overcome the relative strength difference between upper and lower columns.

And I would again argue that, aside from the initiating event, "buckling" is a mostly irrelevant failure mode during the crush down of the towers. In order to get any column to buckle, you have to (to a variable degree) constrain its ends and maintain the compressive forces approximately aligned with the axis of the beam. During the crush down, neither one of these conditions were met. In addition, if those (comparatively) thin walled, 14" box columns & I beams did buckle, they would absolutely have retained kinks in them after the process.

The proof of that buckling was not a dominant process is the lack of kinked columns in the rubble.

Which leads to the actual failure modes during the buildings' collapse: the fracture of bolts & welds that joined the columns to their cross bracings.

And, with this as the failure mode, then I have to say that the building did NOT get significantly stronger in the lower floors, because the actual parts that failed, the bolts & welds, did not get stronger.

Second, I don't believe there is anyone who understands the science, yet doubts the result. There's little motivation for a real researcher to do it.

Right on target.

tom
 
My approach to modeling the WTC collapse

But if anyone wants to do it, I encourage you, and the third show attempts to show you how. I'll be glad to critique your efforts.

I think that a Rapid Prototyping process might make the job reasonable. Fabbing 3 story segments at a shot, growing the part in the z axis. You could even produce the column stagger. The scale factor is the determined by the area capability of the prototyping system compared to the 207' side of the building.

The key to getting the model accurate is getting the joints between the cross trusses & the inner & outer columns sufficiently weak. You might just be able to do this by creating extremely thin tabs that join the components. If you can't get them thin enough (.0005 to .002" I'd imagine), you shorten their widths appropriately.

You'd have to model the cross trusses with extremely thin walled I beam shapes, the concrete floors with thin solids.

One could get an adhesive film to join the columns whose failure when bending the columns mimicked the tensile failure of the bolts. This could be done by controling the area of tiny stand off pads on the flanges.

While I doubt that RP could generate the thin walled cross-sections of the columns, I don't think it'd hurt the model if they were oversized. Because, as I said before, I don't believe that their buckling was a significant failure mode.

So, what I'd consider doing is to build all the floors this way in 3 story units, with the columns, cross trusses, floors and connections all produced automatically by the RP process. Except the one failed floor (the 95th, for the North tower). On that floor, I'd use thin walled extruded tube. You can get dipped square polyimid tubing down to .0002" thick.

I'd join the upper segments to the lower segments using the appropriate lengths of extruded tubing to set up the top section tilted to the correct angle before collapse. And I'd join all the outer tubings to the inner tubings at mid-floor height using prestretched nitinol wires, such that, when I was ready for collapse, I'd run some current into the nitinol, shrink it, and have the whole assembly collapse on cue.

Figuring one 3-story segment per night (unattended), it'd take about 40 days to generate the model. Stacking together would be really quick (pins protrusions on the columns) with precut, double sided adhesive between.

All in all, it seems feasible to me. No idea - yet - of the costs, tho.

tom
 
Not quite. As you increase the AoA, the angle between the "waterline" (direction the nose is pointed) and the true "velocity vector" increases. This means that the whole airplane is plowing thru the air at an increased angle, thereby increasing the parasitic drag of the fuselage & horizontal stabilizer as well.

Nonetheless, this component is usually folded into the "induced drag", since it simplifies the understanding of effects for the pilot into "them factors that are affected by AoA vs. them factors that ain't".

Right. This is why the whole concept of "induced drag" as a separate quantity is a little bit silly to begin with -- the induced drag gets mixed up with regular parasitic drag no matter how you look at it. But that's the way the assumptions and the terminology work. It's not a terrible approximation, provided you only vary your pitch a couple of degrees, and your wings are relatively large compared to the fuselage bluff area.

I've heard Lear also claim that Ground Effect would prevent the plane from flying that fast & that low. This is, of course, silly.

John Lear (the son of the inventor, not the inventor) has claimed all kinds of crazy things. I dislike making fun of the incompetent. Suffice to say that most people can figure out things like this on their own.

And I would again argue that, aside from the initiating event, "buckling" is a mostly irrelevant failure mode during the crush down of the towers. In order to get any column to buckle, you have to (to a variable degree) constrain its ends and maintain the compressive forces approximately aligned with the axis of the beam. During the crush down, neither one of these conditions were met. In addition, if those (comparatively) thin walled, 14" box columns & I beams did buckle, they would absolutely have retained kinks in them after the process.

The proof of that buckling was not a dominant process is the lack of kinked columns in the rubble.

Which leads to the actual failure modes during the buildings' collapse: the fracture of bolts & welds that joined the columns to their cross bracings.

And, with this as the failure mode, then I have to say that the building did NOT get significantly stronger in the lower floors, because the actual parts that failed, the bolts & welds, did not get stronger.

Nope, I disagree with this. There are a lot of possible failure mechanisms, and different choices at different times in the collapse -- for instance, long after initiation, the debris pile is moving so fast that you're essentially shearing away ALL supports and simply pushing columns to the side, not really loading them at all. This is seen in the surviving core remnants of both Towers. But early, and in many cases, I am reasonably sure that buckling is the correct mechanism.

First, in terms of the failure theory, you are correct that actual vertical loading to failure is unlikely. But there is more than one way to buckle. The other one is to apply an eccentric load, essentially adding moment to the columns. Think of buckling where the top is unrestrained, or a free-ended beam rather than a true column.

Second, regarding the debris evidence, some buckling will be elastic. You do not necessarily need to find kinks in the recovered columns. The actual permanent displacement, if any, may be quite small. Additionally, as NIST reported, even though a lot of the structural members looked straight after the collapse, they weren't. NIST had trouble finding even a single one that was true after the collapse.

Third, regarding fracture, there is no solid cross-bracing between perimeter and core except in select areas, and the perimeter can fail as a unit. The perimeter, therefore, is highly likely to buckle. The core, well, it's more solidly framed so there I would agree fracture and shearing of seats followed by instability is the dominant mechanism.

Fourth, regarding weld strength, this does indeed increase with depth below the collapse initiation point. More bearing surface to support the welds. Thicker webs, wider columns, etc. This is all academic, however, since after the collapse really starts rolling, the structural strength is but a roundoff error; most of the delay comes from momentum transfer, not actual springiness in the lower structure.

Fracture is definitely a big part of the story. Hard to model, though.

I think that a Rapid Prototyping process might make the job reasonable. Fabbing 3 story segments at a shot, growing the part in the z axis. You could even produce the column stagger. The scale factor is the determined by the area capability of the prototyping system compared to the 207' side of the building.

[...] While I doubt that RP could generate the thin walled cross-sections of the columns, I don't think it'd hurt the model if they were oversized. Because, as I said before, I don't believe that their buckling was a significant failure mode.

I actually think it'd be fairly easy. The column stagger in the RP model would be different than the original structure, and the dimensions and material used would be different than a true scale reproduction, but the correct strength as a function of height would be a pretty simple polynomial -- no worse than fourth order. Nothing you couldn't build.

Of course, depending on what you wanted to prove, you wouldn't need the whole 110 stories anyway. If you got progressive collapse through 10 stories, that would probably be enough to prove the effect. That wouldn't allow a timing estimate of the total collapse, but it would let you study what it took to arrest progressive collapse.

This is third-show material, coming soon.

Good observations. Like I said repeatedly, these are not meant to be perfect models. They're simplified in numerous ways. That doesn't make them wrong, it just means you can take it a lot further if you want more resolution.
 
Since that video deals with the plane impact isn't the buildings response to the impact important to the analysis?

The NIST report says the 70th floor moved 12 inches and they have a graph of the building oscillating for FOUR MINUTES after impact. That behavior is somewhat similar to the swaying in the wind that the building was designed to do. An extrapolation would indicate the 81st floor, where the plane hit, should have moved 14 inches.

So how do you compute how much of the plane's kinetic energy went into producing that oscillation? Can an analysis of the structural damage be done without that information?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

psik
 
Oh SO wrong self proclaimed expert on everything WWII and flying.


Hmmm, condescension. Not a good start.


I said kamikaze's sometimes packed the nose of their plane with explosives.
Now all you need to do is supply the evidence supporting your assertion.

Other than the Okha, kamikaze aircraft were whatever aircraft the Japanese already had in service. Dive and torpedo bombers already had hard points under the fuselage for carrying bombs. No need for packing bombs into the nose, which would upset the centre of gravity of the aircraft (and, for single-engined aircraft, would necessitate the removal of the engine). Most fighters had a hard point under the fuselage on which a bomb could be carried, or were converted to have such a hard point. But this was under the fuselage, near the centre of gravity (naturally), and certainly not under the nose.


What you don't want to address is the fact that Mackey showed a picture in his PP presentation of a battleship AFTER a kamikaze plane both impaled the ship AND exploded a bomb AND started a fuel fed fire.


And you have failed to acknowledge that the aircraft penetrates first and the bomb detonates afterwards.


Still the ship was put back in commission a month later. Is the WTC back in commission 8 years later?
Was the ship hit by the equivalent of a 2,000 lb. bomb? Is a ship of the same structure and construction as a building? Did the WTC contain steel armour plating?


I mean we are here to talk about 9/11 no? Or do you just want to turn this into a discussion about WWII aeronautics for lack of anything else?


I'm pointing your complete lack of knowlege on the specific item you sought to criticize. If you get that completely wrong, what hope is there for you to get anything else correct?


Don't try to make comparisons to 9/11 if you have NONE.


Indeed, you shouldn't.

But you keep on doing so anyway, even when it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about. This is not necessarily a bad thing, if you stopped and realized you were woefully uninformed, and then sought to correct your lack of understanding. But instead you choose to remain in your state of ignorance. That is the sad part.
 
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Ryan, if you ever want to know what a real wasteland looks like, click on this link concerning the Hardfire programs. Oh, my God. I'm trying. Really I am.

It's fairly impressive to me that the rational discussion is happening at Screw Loose Change -- where no Truthers at all have bothered to show up.

I've gotten a few good technical questions here and through e-mail, but the Truth Movement response so far is (aside from Heiwa repeatedly demonstrating his incompetence, without any prompting from me at all) a total forfeit. Nothing but trouble-making and idiotic complaints.

It's over for the Truth Movement. This only proves it yet again. But that's OK, my intent, as I stated here and in the show itself, was to help others learn something about physics and the scientific method. I also hope the Truth Movement gets it, but if not, oh well. Big surprise.

ETA: You think the DU thread is bad, dig this post from GoogleVideo:
(anonymous) said:
We know Mackey isn't working for the bad guys as a paid agent because he looks into the camera and says so. And President Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman.
From the comments on the first show, rough version.

Parody, or genuine ultra-paranoiac off his medication? This rather reminds me of failing a Turing test, as -- at this point -- does the entire remnant of the Truth Movement.
 
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Off-topic and bickering moved to AAH. Infractions and suspensions may follow if we have to do this again.

Sadly, the discussion on the WTC facade was not worth keeping in it's current form but feel free to start a new thread on that subject.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode
 
I've gotten a few good technical questions here and through e-mail, but the Truth Movement response so far is (aside from Heiwa repeatedly demonstrating his incompetence, without any prompting from me at all) a total forfeit. Nothing but trouble-making and idiotic complaints.

Thanks for your opinion. Incompetence? I have summerized my observations in a theorem, or why not an axiom (?), that now is:

You cannot crush an isotropic or composite structure A by a part C of A (C = 1/10 A) by dropping part C on A using gravity. Part C either bounces on A or gets damaged in contact with A and is stopped by A that is also damaged a little. It is quite basic and all due to gravity. Materials and particulars of the elements of the structure A doesn't matter the least.

It seems you are going to refute this in your Hardfire Physics of 9/11 part III show this week (as mentioned in part II) ... and I look forward to that.

No need to judge people incompetent on JREF - it is just a friendly and lively discussion forum about the paranormal, &c.

Yes, I am incompetent in many ways, I cannot play the French horn or an Irish harp, but I know a little about mechanics and structural analysis and sometimes I play the piano.
 
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Thanks for your opinion. Incompetence? I have summerized my observations in a theorem, or why not an axiom (?), that now is:

You cannot crush an isotropic or composite structure A by a part C of A (C = 1/10 A) by dropping part C on A using gravity. Part C either bounces on A or gets damaged in contact with A and is stopped by A that is also damaged a little. It is quite basic and all due to gravity. Materials and particulars of the elements of the structure A doesn't matter the least.

It seems you are going to refute this in your Hirdfire Physics of 9/11 part III show this week (as mentioned in part II) ... and I look forward to that.

No need to judge people incompetent on JREF - it is just a friendly and lively discussion forum about the paranormal, &c.

Yes, I am incompetent in many ways, I cannot play the French horn or an Irish harp, but I know a little about mechanics and structural analysis and sometimes I play the piano.
This forum is about exposing the paranormal delusions, like your delusions on 911. You don’t know this forum is about being skeptical and we found you willfully spreading delusions based on you failed common sense and incompetence at engineering.

This forum is about exposing the fraud of 911Truth, and you joined 911Truth. Irony as you post delusions without a clue about the forum you post the tripe in.

Your axiom is dumb. Go ask a physicist if you can find one on the slopes next time you use gravity for pleasure but have no clue how it fits in 911.

“2 mile drop” is classic in failed logic, and delusion.
 
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This forum is about exposing the paranormal delusions, like your delusions on 911. You don’t know this forum is about being skeptical and we found you willfully spreading delusions based on you failed common sense and incompetence at engineering.

This forum is about exposing the fraud of 911Truth, and you joined 911Truth. Irony as you post delusions without a clue about the forum you post the tripe in.

Your axiom is dumb. Go ask a physicist if you can find one on the slopes next time you use gravity for pleasure but have no clue how it fits in 911.

“2 mile drop” is classic in failed logic, and delusion.

Topic here is Hardfire; Physics of 9/11. It seems the Truth movement has the upper hand, so Hardfire has to correct things, e.g. the physics as explained by Ryan Mackey in three parts. Hardfire has promised to comment upon my findings in Part III to be shown this week. I just want to be helpful. The only organization I have joined is AE911truth.org or rather I signed their petition about a new investigation! This is actually international law re ship accidents! UN-resolution IMO A.849(20) and its Code for Investigations of Accidents and Incidents at Sea, paragraph 13, are clear.
" when new facts changing previous conclusions are presented they shall be reviewed and investigated ..."
And there are plenty of those. But let's get the physics correct first.
 
Topic here is Hardfire; Physics of 9/11. It seems the Truth movement has the upper hand, so Hardfire has to correct things, e.g. the physics as explained by Ryan Mackey in three parts. Hardfire has promised to comment upon my findings in Part III to be shown this week. I just want to be helpful. The only organization I have joined is AE911truth.org or rather I signed their petition about a new investigation! This is actually international law re ship accidents! UN-resolution IMO A.849(20) and its Code for Investigations of Accidents and Incidents at Sea, paragraph 13, are clear.
" when new facts changing previous conclusions are presented they shall be reviewed and investigated ..."
And there are plenty of those. But let's get the physics correct first.
Over 7 years and the best you can do is fail in your attacks on Mackey and spew tangential tripe while plugging your failed physics page on 911.

The truth movement has the upper hand in hearsay, lies and fantasy.

The topic is the presentation by Mackey and you can’t touch it.
Ironic as you failed to use physics.
 
You cannot crush an isotropic or composite structure A by a part C of A (C = 1/10 A) by dropping part C on A using gravity. Part C either bounces on A or gets damaged in contact with A and is stopped by A that is also damaged a little. It is quite basic and all due to gravity. Materials and particulars of the elements of the structure A doesn't matter the least.

Strange how your "axiom" changes from post to post. Not long ago you were saying it didn't matter whether the impact was vertical or horizontal, that it didn't matter whether the forces were due to gravity or other causes.
You seem to have changed your tune in the space of a few days. Why? Would you care - finally - to define your position? That is, talk like a scientist/engineer?
 
Strange how your "axiom" changes from post to post. Not long ago you were saying it didn't matter whether the impact was vertical or horizontal, that it didn't matter whether the forces were due to gravity or other causes.
You seem to have changed your tune in the space of a few days. Why? Would you care - finally - to define your position? That is, talk like a scientist/engineer?

"Isotropic or composite" have been added for clarity. It is likely that axiom is also applicable to horizontal impact but at present it is limited to drop due to gravity. Maybe details of support of part A should be specified? No real changes, in my opinion. Have you found any structure that does not behave as per axiom?
 
"Isotropic or composite" have been added for clarity. It is likely that axiom is also applicable to horizontal impact but at present it is limited to drop due to gravity. Maybe details of support of part A should be specified? No real changes, in my opinion. Have you found any structure that does not behave as per axiom?
Just 2 mile drops with large masses that may not reach terminal velocity.

LOL; this is the one of five major dumb ideas on 911.
 

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