I own a gun!

[Eddie Dane]

On the question: "why can't they keep their guns at the club?" (sports shooters)

Well,

Here's a list of thing I really don't want to keep locked up at a secondary location:

My laptop
My weights
My collection of silk Italian ties
My huge television (out of date now, not a flatscreen)
My Volkwagen TSI with sports suspension
My German kitchen knives
My Hendrix albums
My external harddisk with music, porn, movies, porn, audio books and porn
My copy of Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire
And whole bunch of other crap that I bought and collected because I like it.

It's mine! Mine! All mine!

Thank you.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I'm not constantly afraid, that's what I have the gun for.*

Seriously, is that the way you want to frame it? That people only want guns because they're scared? Gun owners are cowards?

I don't think the two statements are equivalent. I'm scared of flying, but I keep getting on the planes every month. Does that make me a coward?
(Mind you, if I see Claus on board, I may shoot him for safety's sake).

Having been in the states a number of times I , like Rolfe, have been surprised that some folk I know seem not only to feel safer with a gun in their home, but only to feel safe when there is one. Being wholly unused to guns, I'd feel quite the opposite.
Part of the reason for this does seem to be that in the USA "My gun saved my life" stories seem to get more press inches than "My gun killed my kid" stories, whereas in Europe the opposite applies.
Perception of risk may be very different from actuality of risk and the press has a lot to do with that.

The rise in knife crime-especially among young men- in the UK seems to reflect a similar fear- that the bad boys carry knives, so I need to. I'm pretty sure if handguns were easily obtainable here the death rate amongst young men due to them would be as high as in America.

As for the OP- If I lived in Wyoming and hunted for the pot, yes, I might have a rifle and would think that reasonable. As I live in a town in central Scotland and buy my red meat in a store, I would think it wholly unreasonable.

 

[Rolfe]

Soapy Sam, what do you think about this one?

It seems this might have been another school rampage shooter in the making. But because his little game of assembling guns in his home was illegal, he was stopped. I wonder how far this would have got if what he was doing was perfectly legal and normal?

On the other hand, none of us are ever told "what would have happened".

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

If I lived in Wyoming and hunted for the pot, yes, I might have a rifle and would think that reasonable. As I live in a town in central Scotland and buy my red meat in a store, I would think it wholly unreasonable.

It seems to me that guns aren't that uncommon round here. Farmers have them, and shooting, either at targets or game, is very popular. I have clients raising tens of thousands of pheasants every year to stock their shoots.

It's the gun enthusiasm as such, the fascination with the object, and the desire to own it and have it in the home, that I don't see here.

Rolfe.

 

[BPSCG]

So you have guns for exactly the same reason as I posited before: Because you want to.

In America, that's a good enough reason.

I try to think globally and make allowances for people from other countries' opinions. As long as they are aware that their opinion should only go as far as their own borders. I don't mean that to sound snide, just that different circumstances dictate different solutions. I don't see people from Arizona on here telling Euros that they should go around armed. I would only ask the same consideration in return from them.

Exactly.

But how about turning the argument around? It's always, "What's wrong with you Americans that you want to have guns? Don't you know how dangerous they are?"

I submit that it's people that are dangerous, not guns. Or more accurately, certain people with guns.

Do you - Europeans, that is, with very strict gun laws - believe that your countries would turn into free-fire ranges if it were easy to own a gun? Do you think you are that violent? Does the example of the Swiss make you think that maybe it is possible for a society to be well-armed and peaceable?

 

[Rolfe]

Seriously, is that the way you want to frame it? That people only want guns because they're scared? Gun owners are cowards?

No. You misunderstand. It's question of the likelihood of the event that you're guarding against.

I have a fire extinguisher in my current house. First time ever. I didn't put it there, it was there when I moved in. I can see why. The upstairs windows are high and sloping and I really wouldn't care to have to clamber out of one. And the kitchen is at the bottom of the stairs. So somebody has decided that the danger is sufficient to gat a fire extinguisher put in.

Never bothered before. Never saw the likelihood of fire as sufficient to get anything.

The attitude of US posters to guns suggests to me that they live in a very dangerous society. That the actual likelihood of being attacked is high enough to justify taking what is to me a fairly extreme precaution.

To me, the probability of being attacked in my home or out in the street is so low that it would never even enter my head if it wasn't for these threads. I perceive, from posters in this forum, that America seems to be more dangerous. I wouldn't like to live somewhere where the probability of being attacked was high enough that I had to think about taking precautions against it.

Rolfe.

 

[BPSCG]

After the last thread like this, the very idea of going to America spooked me massively. The people who live there were making it out to be a wild, lawless, dangerous place where your chances of having your home "invaded" or being shot by a spooked home-owner were high.

I went to Michigan for just over a week. Had a great time. As far as I know, my hosts had no firearms in the house, which was big and isolated in six acres of land. The subject was never mentioned. I saw no violence and no incidents of any kind.

Last time I was in France, we got into a discussion with my cousin, who's been to the US exactly once, something like 35 years ago, for two weeks.

My cousin was convinced that we all walk down the street ready to plug anything that moves. I invited him to come to the US for a visit. I offered to buy every gun he saw, knowing the promise would almost certainly not cost me a dime unless we walked into the rare pawn shop around here.

 

[tyr_13]

No. You misunderstand. It's question of the likelihood of the event that you're guarding against.

I have a fire extinguisher in my current house. First time ever. I didn't put it there, it was there when I moved in. I can see why. The upstairs windows are high and sloping and I really wouldn't care to have to clamber out of one. And the kitchen is at the bottom of the stairs. So somebody has decided that the danger is sufficient to gat a fire extinguisher put in.

Never bothered before. Never saw the likelihood of fire as sufficient to get anything.

The attitude of US posters to guns suggests to me that they live in a very dangerous society. That the actual likelihood of being attacked is high enough to justify taking what is to me a fairly extreme precaution.

To me, the probability of being attacked in my home or out in the street is so low that it would never even enter my head if it wasn't for these threads. I perceive, from posters in this forum, that America seems to be more dangerous. I wouldn't like to live somewhere where the probability of being attacked was high enough that I had to think about taking precautions against it.

Rolfe.

But guarding against an attack that is likely never to come isn't the only reason for gun ownership. It is just one of many. If you believe that the only rational justification for owning a gun is self defense, but that because the need to use one in self defense is rare, I could agree. But it isn't the sole reason.

The reason you and other might have the perception that Americans for guns are all afraid of attack, are paranoid, and just volatile it the same one that makes the 'gun killed my child' stories seem much more prevalently; the squeaky wheel. The crazies who are paranoid about home invasion and such will always yell and never shut up about it. So you hear them. The people who have had their child killed by a gun will always yell, and will keep yelling, and likely never will stop. So you hear them. A person who successfully defended themselves or others with a firearm will in all likelihood yell praise once if ever. So they aren't heard. The more reasonable objections to guns aren't the ones that people who are just flat out afraid or unfamiliar to guns tend to yell. Thus, a lot of the pro-gun people only hear, 'guns are scary, no one should have them,' and react to that.

Plus, the 'self defense' defense of guns is the only one a lot of people who are just afraid will accept. To them, saying that one should be allowed to have firearms because they are a fun hobby, a tradition, and a basic freedom is just so much crazy excuse making.

 

[Rolfe]

Plus, the 'self defense' defense of guns is the only one a lot of people who are just afraid will accept. To them, saying that one should be allowed to have firearms because they are a fun hobby, a tradition, and a basic freedom is just so much crazy excuse making.

Well, that's honest.

Rolfe.

 

[BPSCG]

Plus, the 'self defense' defense of guns is the only one a lot of people who are just afraid will accept. To them, saying that one should be allowed to have firearms because they are a fun hobby, a tradition, and a basic freedom is just so much crazy excuse making.

Why should one have to justify owning a gun at all? Why is it insufficient to say, "I have a gun because I want to have a gun"?

One could argue, "Well, guns are dangerous."

Yes, so is a car.

"But a car serves a useful purpose. You're saying you want something dangerous for no useful purpose, but rather just because you want it."

Yeah. So what? Why should you care?

 

[bruto]

All you city folk still haven't come up with the anti-gun solution to varmints.

What bleeping good would a gun in some government depot do the next time I have to shoot a rabid raccoon?

 

[RoboTimbo]

Plus, the 'self defense' defense of guns is the only one a lot of people who are just afraid will accept. To them, saying that one should be allowed to have firearms because they are a fun hobby, a tradition, and a basic freedom is just so much crazy excuse making.

I think a lot of the Euro perspective of America is because they're watching the wrong American TV shows. Maybe we should stop listing self-defense as a reason for owning a firearm. Of the FOUR reasons I listed upthread, the anti-gun people always come back to the ONE reason and latch onto it like a dog on a bone.

So, forget self-defense. I've never had to defend my life or anyone else's and I feel quite pleasantly safe out walking my dogs at any time of the day or night. I'm with BPSCG, I don't need to justify owning firearms to anyone any more than I need to justify owning a table saw or a rocking chair.

 

[Ranb]

I didn't even imply that. I actually asked for irrefutable reasons to own one despite the fact that of course "No gun" means "No shooting".

"No gun" does not mean "no killing" or "no crime".

Ranb

 

[Polaris]

when i get in that situation, i give all my money .

also in our companys we gave out the order, in case of robbery, give all the money, do not resist, do not try anything , stay calm, be nice and friendly.
dont try any stupid things that will endanger your and others live even more.

mostly they dont want to kill you, they just want the money.
Material things and money can be replaced, live cannot.

But they are choosing to put an innocent person in a situation where he is not aware of their intentions. Accidents involving firearms do happen (something gun-control advocates bring up all the time, by the way), and this possibility is not lessened by criminals who are probably loaded full of adrenaline and likely controlled substances as well. If a person has a gun pulled on him during a robbery, his life is in danger by default. So is the next person who gets robbed by the scumbag.

 

[Ranb]

when i get in that situation, i give all my money .

mostly they dont want to kill you, they just want the money.
Material things and money can be replaced, live cannot.

How often do you find yourself in that kind of situtation? There comes a time when a person is threatened that they have to make a decision; do they trust the criminal to not injure or kill them, or do they decide to depend on themselves and not leave that decision to the criminal in front of them?

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

Hunting: Okay, it wouldn't work without guns.

Sport Shooting: Yes, but there is no need to keep those guns at home, is there?

Self defense: Only necessary if the assaulter has a gun as well, which -

Collector value: That's valid as well and as far I remember,

Hunting works without guns, archery and spears are still used.

Some sport shooters load their own ammo and repair or modify their own guns; I do.

Tell that to a person who is disabled or is of a diminutive size compared to their attacker. You do not really expect a 90 pound woman to drive away a 200 pound attacker using only her fists, knife or baseball bat do you?

It is rare that a non-firing gun has any significant collector's value in the USA.

Ranb

 

[GreNME]

How often do you find yourself in that kind of situtation? There comes a time when a person is threatened that they have to make a decision; do they trust the criminal to not injure or kill them, or do they decide to depend on themselves and not leave that decision to the criminal in front of them?

Ranb

Okay, that's really funny. I even just pictured that being said by Sam Eliot.

 

[GreNME]

Hunting works without guns, archery and spears are still used.

This is true.

Some sport shooters load their own ammo and repair or modify their own guns; I do.

This is true, but leaves out the highly popular practice of those who also modify certain legal weapons to illegal specs.

Tell that to a person who is disabled or is of a diminutive size compared to their attacker. You do not really expect a 90 pound woman to drive away a 200 pound attacker using only her fists, knife or baseball bat do you?

Actually, in most cases I can show a 90 pound woman how to handle a situation with a 200 pound attacker, yes. Lack of imagination isn't an excuse.

It is rare that a non-firing gun has any significant collector's value in the USA.

Okay, that's just false.

 

[Drudgewire]

Actually, in most cases I can show a 90 pound woman how to handle a situation with a 200 pound attacker, yes. Lack of imagination isn't an excuse.

Oh that must be why there aren't weight classes in combat sports. After all, a little imagination is all it takes to best a bigger person.

 

[GreNME]

Oh, and before the knee-jerk responses: I'm not against gun ownership. I don't typically have a problem with it. I just don't fool myself out of acknowledging that there's a fairly large contingent of people who own guns who make the larger majority of gun owners look like loons or idiots.

Why should one have to justify owning a gun at all? Why is it insufficient to say, "I have a gun because I want to have a gun"?

One could argue, "Well, guns are dangerous."

Yes, so is a car.

"But a car serves a useful purpose. You're saying you want something dangerous for no useful purpose, but rather just because you want it."

Yeah. So what? Why should you care?

This would be an acceptable argument, except for the fact that, unlike a car or a chair, the only purpose of a gun is to kill. That doesn't mean that the owner's intent is always such, but the plain fact is that when a gun comes into play in any situation other than shooting targets then the implication is that the person holding the gun intends for whomever it gets pointed at to die. There's no other way to interpret such an action, regardless of the person holding the gun's intent. To assume otherwise would be ridiculous.

That said, I have no problem with ownership of things that are meant to kill. Otherwise, I'd be pretty hypocritical with my own fancy for live steel, particularly of the long, sharp, and pointy type. Most gun owners I know are perfectly aware of the implications of what they own, and treat it accordingly. They also tend to have a huge disrespect for those who don't treat it accordingly. I can't really ask for more than that.