Steel failing in hydrocarbon fires.

[A W Smith]

homeland insurgency, debunked once again

Insist loudly on a Minor Point logical fallacy noted

So it's not a relevant example of what is claimed to have happened to any three of the global collapses that occurred on 9/11.

Thank you.

See how Gravy never really debunks anything? lol

Maybe they aren't comparable after all? One fire was started by an overheating coffee maker. The other by a 757 fully loaded with an accelerant flying into the buildings at top speed. Wonder which stands a better chance of survival HI?

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

Maybe they aren't comparable after all? One fire was started by an overheating coffee maker. The other by a 757 fully loaded with an accelerant flying into the buildings at top speed. Wonder which stands a better chance of survival HI?

You forget AW that not all buildings on 9/11 were hit by a plane.

 

[Gravy]

Maybe they aren't comparable after all? One fire was started by an overheating coffee maker. The other by a 757 fully loaded with an accelerant flying into the buildings at top speed. Wonder which stands a better chance of survival HI?

That depends on how fast the coffee maker was traveling.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

yes it is a relevent example to bolster the global collapses on 9/11.

this clearly shows that steel can fail in a fire and lead to collapse.

the first significant difference between the example gravy posted and the towers or WTC 7 is construction. The building in the above video is clearly not a long span truss construction maening that there are columns fairly evenly spaced throughout the building rather than being concentrated in a central core

The Windsor is the same type of example. Steel failed and in that case both the post/beam construction and the concrete core columns arrested the collapses.

Furthermore, of course, in the case of the WTC towers we have multi-level fires all being started at the same time rather than the typical office fire for which such a multi-level involvement would take hours as opposed to seconds, AND the fact that the fire floors also suffered structural loss due to the fact that a large aircraft going several hundred miles per hour hit each of them. they started their instantaneous, multi-level office fire phases with the initial condition of several damaged and severed columns. Those are TWO conditions that you will not find occuring in any other office fire that has ever occured.

WTC 7 also started with physical damage BUT its major failing was in the assymettric placing of floor beams and girders which allowed for greater movement of those members due to thermal expansion. Thermal expansion is relevent to the OP. In fact I posted a few examples of thermal expansion causing railway tracks to warp sufficiently enough to cause derailments. Such expansion occured due solely to the rails being heated by the Sun.

Others here have posted about the effect of higher heat on steel. heat produced only by the burning of hydrocarbon fuels.


Your thoughts on this HI?

My thoughts are that steel structure high-rise buildings are usually large buildings. Fires are usually isolated. So collapsing the entire building because of isolated damage and fire is unlikely if not impossible. Just like the video Gravy displayed.

Three times in one day for two different given reasons is impossible.

You're all supposed to be the critical thinkers around here aren't you? Why does a crazy twoofer like me need to rub your nose in this very smelly fact?

How does it smell debunker?

 

[autumn1971]

My thoughts are that steel structure high-rise buildings are usually large buildings. Fires are usually isolated. So collapsing the entire building because of isolated damage and fire is unlikely if not impossible. Just like the video Gravy displayed.

Three times in one day for two different given reasons is impossible.

You're all supposed to be the critical thinkers around here aren't you? Why does a crazy twoofer like me need to rub your nose in this very smelly fact?

How does it smell debunker?

So you are on the record as agreeing that a hydrocarbon fire can cause steel stuctures to fail.

The complete destruction of particular buildings is not at issue in this thread.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

So you are on the record as agreeing that a hydrocarbon fire can cause steel stuctures to fail.

The complete destruction of particular buildings is not at issue in this thread.

It depends. Is it a steel structured dog house or a high-rise?

Why is it you can't come up with a valid comparison in over a one hundred year history of steel structured high-rise fires?

 

[A W Smith]

It depends. Is it a steel structured dog house or a high-rise?

Why is it you can't you come up with a valid comparison in over a one hundred year history of steel structured high-rise fires?

did you read the op?

One of the tiresome refrains of the third-string truthers who pass through here like meat through the sausage grinder is that a hydrocarbon fire can never make steel fail.

We have shown in this thread that yes, fire can cause steel to fail. Now that you are agreeing with it, you move the goalposts to a "first time time in history" fallacy , which is a topic thats been covered and debunked in other threads. So either start a new thread or bump an old one.
Fair enough?

 

[Baylor]

What happened to the progressive collapse?

The progressive collapse happened at 0:46 of the video.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Lest anyone forgotten the exchange I had with this guy back in January:

Contrary to what you imply, there's a first time for everything.

Well you believe that.

I don't.

LINK

Stop wasting time on him... no matter how clear the point of the OP is, he doesn't care... He doesn't think first times apply to architectural or engineering applications regardless of the record concerning the material in question being known to fail at different severities. If he doesn't understand that after having that explained to him multiple times, then let him learn on his own.

 

[A W Smith]

Lest anyone forgotten the exchange I had with this guy back in January:



LINK

Enough said... stop wasting time on him... no matter how clear the point of the OP is, he doesn't care... He doesn't think first times apply to architectural or engineering applications. If he doesn't understand that after having that explained to him multiple times, then let him learn on his own.

But we certainly enjoy kicking his truther ass and watching him run from threads.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

The progressive collapse happened at 0:46 of the video.

Nope. The building was still there.

It's not a comparison to what is claimed to have happened on 9/11 three times for two different reasons.

Just can't get around it can you or anyone else for that matter?

I mean really who is trying to move the goal posts?

It ain't me.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

But we certainly enjoy kicking his truther ass and watching him run from threads.

You have never been anything but kicked in your sorry existence.

I'm sorry. For you.

 

[Baylor]

Nope. The building was still there.

Yup. You don't appear to know what a progressive collapse is. The Ronan Point collapse was a progressive failure, and much of that building remained standing.

Wiki-Wiki

Under the action of gravity the flank walls fell away, leaving the floors above unsupported. This caused the progressive collapse of the whole south-east corner of the building.

So we can rule out engineering as your degree.

 

[BenBurch]

You have never been anything but kicked in your sorry existence.

I'm sorry. For you.

Just like a Bushista Neocon. You lose, and then declare victory. But its OK if you "catapult the propaganda" hard enough, eh? KKKarl Rove would be PROUD of you, son.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

Yup. You don't appear to know what a progressive collapse is. The Ronan Point collapse was a progressive failure, and much of that building remained standing.

Wiki-Wiki

Oh my God. Are you insane?

Ronan Point was a 23-storey tower block in Newham, East London, which suffered a fatal partial collapse due to a natural gas explosion 16 May 1968.

Ronan Point, named after Harry Ronan (a former Chairman of the Housing Committee of the London Borough of Newham), was part of the wave of tower blocks built in the 1960s as cheap, affordable prefabricated housing for inhabitants of the West Ham region of London. The tower was built by Taylor Woodrow Anglian, using a technique known as Large Panel System building or LPS. This involved casting large concrete prefabricated sections off-site, then bolting them together to construct the building.

And it wasn't even a global collapse. And there was an explosion involved!

Do you not know how to google?

So we can rule out engineering as your degree.

Why is that? When will you be getting your degree? Be sure to show your classmates my posts.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

Just like a Bushista Neocon. You lose, and then declare victory. But its OK if you "catapult the propaganda" hard enough, eh? KKKarl Rove would be PROUD of you, son.

I'm a liberal Ben. You sound confused. Try to work it out.

 

[Baylor]

Nope. The building was still there.

Ronan Point was a 23-storey tower block in Newham, East London, which suffered a fatal partial collapse due to a natural gas explosion 16 May 1968.

This sparked a gas explosion, which blew out the load bearing flank walls, removing the structural supports to the four flats above. It is believed that the weakness was in the joints connecting the vertical walls to the floor slabs. Under the action of gravity the flank walls fell away, leaving the floors above unsupported. This caused the progressive collapse of the whole south-east corner of the building.

So you just admitted both the video gravy cited and the Ronan Point were a progressive collapses.

 

[BenBurch]

I'm a liberal Ben. You sound confused. Try to work it out.

Sorry, no liberal does that dirty sort of maneuver. We're about HONESTY.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

So you just admitted both the video gravy cited and the Ronan Point were a progressive collapses.

Progressive in it's isolated area. It did not trigger global collapse.

This does not happen.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

Sorry, no liberal does that dirty sort of maneuver. We're about HONESTY.

I am being honest. What maneuver?