Church shooting some kind of trend?

[Patsy]

If I was a preacher or pastor would some of you here on Jref do this to me?

Congratulations, you win. This is the single most offensive post I've seen from a Christian at JREF.

Do you have any idea what a poor ambassador you are for your religion? Can you even imagine the opinion I'd have of your religion if I judged it based upon your behavior on these forums? Do you think vile and ignorant behavior is the way accomplish anything?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Wow. Just... Wow.

--snip--

How dare you. Damn you.

You do realize that if you put her on ignore, you don't have to even see her posts. I heartily recommend the ignore feature to anyone bothered by a poster who, in their eyes, contribute nothing to any discussion except annoyance, and/or is obviously trolling. Ignore them, and they either start acting their age, go away to troll some other forum, or find themselves forced to act so obnoxiously to get attention that they get themselves banned.

 

[Upchurch]

If I was a preacher or pastor would some of you here on Jref do this to me?

From one straw man to another:

It depends. How many young boys are you molesting on a daily basis?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Well I am afraid these types of events will continue to grow as the end draws near. We are warned in scripture many times that believers will suffer persecution.

If I was a preacher or pastor would some of you here on Jref do this to me?

KK, guess what year the following was written. (This is a translation.)

"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common."

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I haven't seen any details on this story, except that the guy shot the pastor, then the gun jammed, so he pulled out a knife and began cutting himself. When other people tried to subdue him, he cut some of them as well.

That's all I know. (Though I've been away from news all day long, so there may be more info available.)

In my state of ignorance, I would guess that the motives of the guy were a personal issue internal to the church congregation. (Jealously, or a love triangle or some such.) At any rate, I doubt that his motives were related to theology or ideology.

 

[joobz]

Well I am afraid these types of events will continue to grow as the end draws near. We are warned in scripture many times that believers will suffer persecution.

If I was a preacher or pastor would some of you here on Jref do this to me?

Kathy, Sometimes it's best to actually READ an article fully before making such statements:

The last paragraph couple paragraphs:

The Illinois shooting is believed to be the nation's first in a church since July, when a 58-year-old man opened fire in a Knoxville, Tennessee, church during a children's play. Two people were killed and six wounded in that shooting at Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church.

In the Tennessee case, Jim Adkisson told police he targeted the church because of its "liberal teachings," according to court papers. Adkisson pleaded guilty last month in a deal that allowed him to avoid the death penalty and will face life in prison without parole, court officials said

The last church shooting was last June at a Unitarian (read that as non-christian) church. A church considered highly secular and one that many atheists will belong to.

Also, did you notice the reason for it being targeted? It was TOO LIBERAL? Much like how YOU VIEW atheists.

 

[Upchurch]

Incidently, I'm a UU with all the liberal teachings.

Kathy, would you do this to me?

 

[Puppycow]

Trend?

The Illinois shooting is believed to be the nation's first in a church since July, when a 58-year-old man opened fire in a Knoxville, Tennessee, church during a children's play. Two people were killed and six wounded in that shooting at Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church.

In the Tennessee case, Jim Adkisson told police he targeted the church because of its "liberal teachings," according to court papers.

Motive?

Trent said police were still trying to determine a motive in the shooting, and that church members did not recognize the gunman.

In December there was gunman in Colorado:

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — The gunman believed to have killed four people in a pair of shooting sprees at a megachurch in Colorado Springs and a missionary training school near Denver had been thrown out of the missionary school a few years ago and had been sending it hate mail, police said in court papers Monday.

The gunman was identified as Matthew Murray, 24, who was home-schooled in what a friend said was a deeply religious Christian household.

Since the gunman is alive I think we'll know the motive for this one pretty soon. Just wait for the next round of updates to the story.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The Illinois shooting is believed to be the nation's first in a church since July, when a 58-year-old man opened fire in a Knoxville, Tennessee, church during a children's play.

Wasn't there a suicide just recently at a megachurch? (Not during service, but nonetheless a "church shooting".)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

So the ones I've heard about relatively recently include:

Clifton, NJ
Knoxville, TN
Maryville, IL
Garden Grove, CA (the suicide at the Crystal Cathedral)

Which seems like a lot to me, but I don't know how common such things have been in the past.

A quick google turned up this article that says church shootings (defined a bit more loosely here, I think) are on the rise:

A tabulation of church shootings, or those closely related to a church setting, was done by Gary Cass, chairman of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, and include 10 such attacks over the last four years, including Murray's two attacks.

ETA: I'm still not convinced my perception of an increase isn't just a bias--whether in reporting or my own perception. I remember a few years back, for no apparent reason, shark attacks got more news coverage, and it seemed that they were on the increase. It turns out that for that year, shark attacks were actually down slightly.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I seriously doubt there is any "trend" to all these church shootings any more than there was a "trend" of school shootings in the 1990s and middle part of this decade.

Media bias, indeed.

 

[Puppycow]

10 attacks in 4 years including 2 by the same person is probably just statistical noise. Within any random distribution, there will be clusters of more activity and periods of less activity. I doubt that there is a statistically significant rise in church shootings. The default assumption should be that there is not, unless it can be shown statistically. Also, you can't look at the data and arbitrarily pick "the last 4 years" because that just happens to have a cluster of activity in it. That is looking for patterns in the data.

 

[Puppycow]

So the ones I've heard about relatively recently include:

Clifton, NJ

That one I didn't know about, but it was a domestic shooting that just happened to take place at a church:

CLIFTON, N.J. — A gunman drove across the country to confront his estranged wife, then killed her in a church vestibule as Sunday services let out, authorities said. Two other people were injured in the attack, which sent churchgoers scrambling for safety.

These all seem to be unrelated shootings for different motives.

 

[fromdownunder]

On the topic of church shootings, don't forget about the shooting at a Unitarian Church last summer or fall. Many of those killed were atheists, and the killer was apparently some kind of really mentally unstable guy who blamed the loss of his job and crappy conditions of his life on "those liberals." So he decided to go out and kill a few

Dare I ask what Kathy's thoughts are on that shooting?

Ooohhh! Ask me. Ask me.

The person who killed these people was obviously not a real Christian or he would never have done this.

This is known as the "No True Shotsman" fallacy

Norm

 

[linusrichard]

Bah, according to yrreg, atheists don't have those.

That would make the crime all the more disturbing, because first you'd have to acquire a penis. (Of course, you'd have to do that whether an atheist or not, but still...)

 

[Edges]

If I was a preacher or pastor would some of you here on Jref do this to me?

Did I miss all the news reports of JREF members going out and killing preachers/pastors?

If you really thought that people on this board would or could shoot someone just because they were a preacher/pastor, why do you think they wouldn't have already done it with existant preachers/pastors?

 

[alfalfafour]

Incidently, I'm a UU with all the liberal teachings.

Kathy, would you do this to me?

Is UU really athiest now? I thought they were "non-trinitarian" "One and only one god" believers?

 

[Beanbag]

You do realize that if you put her on ignore, you don't have to even see her posts. I heartily recommend the ignore feature to anyone bothered by a poster who, in their eyes, contribute nothing to any discussion except annoyance, and/or is obviously trolling. Ignore them, and they either start acting their age, go away to troll some other forum, or find themselves forced to act so obnoxiously to get attention that they get themselves banned.

I try to keep my ignore list at no greater than two, and at present, it's full. Most of the time, I don't frequent the areas that kk does her hit-and-run posts. Besides, ignoring just hides the original post; if quoted by another person, you see what was posted originally.

I'd rather deal with the aggravation of a few posts every once in a while so I can maybe do some damage control on the backside.

I do have to say that in my opinion that kk's post was monumentally... ill-advised, shall we say? even for her. Lack of engaging brain before committing text to screen. She's definitely off the Xmas card list this year.

Beanbag

 

[Puppycow]

Info on the shooter starts to come in

Officials would not comment at the scene, but vehicle records show the home in the first block of Zachary Court is the address of a Terry Joe Sedlacek, a 27-year-old man who co-owns a Jeep Wrangler parked outside the crime scene.
. . .
Neighbors said the man appears to be mentally ill, and would sometimes stand in the street and shout obscenities for no apparent reason.

Anyone know what that condition might be?

 

[alfalfafour]

I try to keep my ignore list at no greater than two, and at present, it's full. Most of the time, I don't frequent the areas that kk does her hit-and-run posts. Besides, ignoring just hides the original post; if quoted by another person, you see what was posted originally.

I'd rather deal with the aggravation of a few posts every once in a while so I can maybe do some damage control on the backside.

I do have to say that in my opinion that kk's post was monumentally... ill-advised, shall we say? even for her. Lack of engaging brain before committing text to screen. She's definitely off the Xmas card list this year.

Beanbag

In her defense, it was in question form. You may assume a leading question, and an acusatory posture, but I seriously doubt that she believed that most of you would shoot her even if she was a minister. I have seen some Atheists in these parts who are not very kind to Christians, and they might have aggravated her. I have seen some who are much less civilized than I expected to find on such a site, and I always wonder why people would take such inferences from a question.

Yet, I too, take inferences from questions. So I can understand why some of you are offended. Not all on this site would deserve my confidence, and I have been here less than a week.

If you attack people for asking the hard questions, where will it lead?