Israeli Army Hate Training!!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Infracted for civility and rule 12.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

 

[Skeptic]

...as the leader of the Palestinian people at the time, the Mufti of Jerusalem (Sheikh Haj Amin el-Husseini) urged them to do.

 

[WildCat]

Has anyone actually posted the text of the pamphlet yet, or is someone's interpretation of it the basis of all the outrage?

Used to be on a skeptic's board evidence was required, instead of unsupported allegations. Oh, wait, I forgot! This is all about bashing those evil Zionists, no evidence necessary!

 

[Almo]

And the Arabs are just full of love for the Jewish people.

TFT- I know, I pray, that you are not DUMB enough to actually argue that some Palestinians, especially Hamas, do NOT teach their children to hate Israelis and Jews with a passion.

Two wrongs don't make a right. And yes, they're both wrong teaching hate. But either one doing it does not justify the other doing it.

 

[fuelair]

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0370.htm

which changes nothing about my overall opinion of the situation - just looks like religious nut cases are pulling the same thing in Israel that has been pulled in parts of the US Military.

 

[Ziggurat]

Has anyone actually posted the text of the pamphlet yet, or is someone's interpretation of it the basis of all the outrage?

That's essentially what I asked to, and that part of my post got ignored. I strongly suspect TFT has no idea about the actual content of the text.

 

[Skeptic]

Since TFT doesn't read Hebrew, it is very unlikely he could read the pamphlet even if he had it.

 

[gumboot]

Here's some extracts from the book. If anyone can read Hebrew perhaps they can summarise?

One thing jumps out at me. Human Rights groups and so forth have complained about it, and quoted three specific passages from the work. One can only assume they are considered the three worst offenders, yet they only seem offensive if you interpret them with existing bias:

“When you show mercy to a cruel enemy you are being cruel to pure and honest soldiers. These are not games at the amusement park where sportsmanship teaches one to make concessions. This is a war on murderers.”

Nothing particularly surprising here. "Show your enemy no mercy". Makes sense.

“[There is] a biblical ban on surrendering a single millimeter of it [the Land of Israel] to gentiles, though all sorts of impure distortions and foolishness of autonomy, enclaves and other national weaknesses. We will not abandon it to the hands of another nation, not a finger, not a nail of it.”

This only sounds bad if you make the biased assumption that "it" refers to the entire area of Palestine/Israel rather than just the legal territory of Israel. To me "we will not abandon it to the hands of another nation" is a reference to the rocket attacks - i.e. every inch of Israel is ours and we will not retreat back and allow Hamas to bombard part of Israel, effectively surrendering it. Sounds reasonable to me. Not many people live along the West Coast of the South Island of my country, but if Australia started lobbing rockets at us you can bet your ass I'd be calling for us to fight back at them.

“The Palestinians claim they deserve a state here, when in reality there was never a Palestinian or Arab state within the borders of our country.” (Quote from Aviner.

Again, only offensive if you assume "our country" refers to all of Palestine/Israel. Otherwise, this passage refers to the claim of those like Hamas that all of Israel is illegal, and that all of the territory belongs to Arabs. Again, a fair enough statement to make.

“A comparison [between Palestinians and the Biblical Philistines] is possible because the Philistines of the past were not natives and had invaded from a foreign land … They invaded the Land of Israel, a land that did not belong to them and claimed political ownership over our country … Today the problem is the same. The Palestinians claim they deserve a state here, when in reality there was never a Palestinian or Arab state within the borders of our country. Moreover, most of them are new and came here close to the time of the War of Independence.”

This is just an extension of above.

 

[yairhol]

Two wrongs don't make a right. And yes, they're both wrong teaching hate. But either one doing it does not justify the other doing it.

Who do you mean by "they're both wrong teaching hate"?
If one of those is Israel then I'm sorry but Israel does not teach to hate anyone. I know. I live here. My family lives here. My friends live here and I know damn well what happens in my country. We(*) do not teach hate for anyone.

(*) Excluding some relatively small right-winged religious nuts which can be found in any western civilized country in the world.

 

[Skeptic]

Gumboot: reading the Hebrew original, a few points.

Right after the quote that says that it is not allowed to be merciful to the cruel, there is a long passage that says that it IS allowed to let those who want to leave the area before the battle do so (with practical advice -- using loudspeakers, etc.). Also, the Rabbi explicitly notes that while cruelty to a cruel enemy in war is allowed, indeed recommended, cruelty as such is an evil thing.

The majority of the pamphlet (the part not translated) is boilerplate "we are a great nation" and "Gott mit Uns"--stuff that doesn't even mention Arabs or Palestinians. Not exactly politically correct, but hardly "hate propaganda".

It's simply not true that the booklet "implies that all Palestinians are mortal enemies". The people called "cruel murderers" who should be killed are clearly applicable the Hamas terrorists, NOT all Palestinians. As an untranslated part says, non-combatants, etc. should be allowed to leave before the battle, and cruelty per se is evil and only should be used against cruel enemies. The obvious implication is that cruelty to, say, women and children is not allowed.

What the booklet does say about the Palestinians as a whole (as opposed to Hamas terrorists specifically) is that they have no right to an independent state and are presumpteous in desiring one on land that belongs to the Jews. But, whatever one thinks about that, that is simply not the same thing as saying that every individual Palestinian is a murderer and mortal enemy, let alone that they should be killed or even expelled.

But isn't the claim the Palestinians have no right to an independent state by implication saying they should all be expelled or killed? No. This is certainly the view of the far-right of the Israeli political spectrum (Kach, etc.) but the vast majority, surely over 90%, of the large number of those Israelies who oppose a Palestinian state or territorial compromise (quite possibly including the author of this pamphlet) simply do not think this means this implies expelling the Palestinians (let alone killing them) is even possible, let alone moral or recommended. This would also not be the conclusion reached by the readers. It simply does not follow -- not to mention contradicting the non-translated part about not killing noncombatants if possible.

Perhaps this is hate propaganda. But even if so, it simply does not say what TFT thinks it says.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Served in the IDF and reported for many 'miluim' (reserve duty) dates, many friends in the IDF from officers to NCOs, never heard of these booklets existing or being distributed. If such a thing were to occur, they would be reported and thrown in military prison for incitement as this is not permitted. So, where are we now in this smear campaign?

One does realize that those who serve in the IDF come from different backgrounds and political alignments, right? If this were to even occur in Israel or the IDF, this would be plastered all over the centrist and leftist media outlets. Didn't hear a peep, so I guess The Independent knows something that's supposedly occurring in Israel that Israelis don't know about.

Classic.

 

[Skeptic]

bigjelmapro -- I agree with you.

As a miluim soldiers as well, I know very well that such pmaphlets, even if they are distributed, are distributed to a tiny number of people on the authority of a particular military rabbi. It is not likely this pamphlet was ordered by the military rabbinate. What's more, again as every Israeli soldiers will tell you, there is no compulsion (or particular interest) to read the pamphlets the military rabbinate puts out.

But that said, EVEN IF it were official army policy, it would simply not be hate propaganda.

 

[gumboot]

Thanks for that translation Skeptic. It would appear the complainants are using the old trick of quote mining.

 

[fuelair]

Thanks for that translation Skeptic. It would appear the complainants are using the old trick of quote mining.

Thoroughly seconded!!

 

[viverravid]

If an official representative of the IDF (or something that coule easily be mistaken to be one) is stating that the Palestinians have no right to an independent state, how is that at all helpful?

I agree it isn't quite the "Hate training" that TFT claims, but it's cerainly encouraging soldiers to adopt a postiion that can only lead to more violence in the future.

 

[bigjelmapro]

viverravid, this sort of material, even if alleged to exist in larger number than it actually is, these sort of ideas/positions/statements are nothing new to Israel as a whole. Israelis, as a whole, are not indoctrinated on the level the Palestinians are with the material seen on their broadcasting systems, media outlets, etc. with opposition being thoroughly silenced. Israelis can make an informed decision since all sides are presented and there is no forcing to think in one way or another. I therefore think that it is highly doubtful that there will be an insurgence of violence due to the existence of these booklets or whatnot.

 

[Skeptic]

To be fair, I don't think this rises to the level of deliberate "quote mining".

ALL quotes that are taken out of ANY non-trivial document tend to make to make the author look either better or worse than he is -- since the very fact that you put all the document's "good" points or "bad" points together has an effect that can be very different than seeing them mixed up together in the original document.

That said, it does give an inaccurate impression.

 

[Skeptic]

If an official representative of the IDF (or something that coule easily be mistaken to be one) is stating that the Palestinians have no right to an independent state, how is that at all helpful?

Perhaps it's not helpful, but it is a far cry from "hate training".

In any case, since the Palestinians have never renounced the "staged plan" of getting a small state as part of the plan to eventually destroy Israel, and in fact Hamas and Arafat constantly declare(d) that Israel's destruction is, was, and will always remain their goal...

...I would say opposition to a Palestinian state is helpful in the same sense that opposing any genocide is helpful.

Saying "a Palestinian state in peace with Israel" is like saying "a circle with four corners".

 

[Pardalis]

Perhaps it's not helpful, but it is a far cry from "hate training".

In any case, since the Palestinians have never renounced the "staged plan" of getting a small state as part of the plan to eventually destroy Israel, and in fact Hamas and Arafat constantly declare(d) that Israel's destruction is, was, and will always remain their goal...

...I would say opposition to a Palestinian state is helpful in the same sense that opposing any genocide is helpful.

Saying "a Palestinian state in peace with Israel" is like saying "a circle with four corners".

[off topic]Are you suggesting the best way to keep the peace is to have Palestinians forever stateless? [/off topic]

 

[tomwaits]

Who doesn't hate training?

It's boring.