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Desperate Atheist searching for Answers

I have not had your experience so perhaps my comments are not apposite. But for what it is worth I think it would be helpful if you spent some time really exploring your own beliefs now that you are out of the milieu which makes that so difficult. There is a joy in discussing these issues with people who have no strong interest in guiding or altering your beliefs, and this is a good place to do it. I am sure there will be people amongst your friends with different opinions too, and so you have time and space to think about this if it interests you. When you are confident in your position it will be easier to avoid confrontation, and to deal with it when it arises, perhaps

Your parents may be very worried about you if their religion teaches your eternity is at stake here: but they may also be worried in the general sense too. I think that most of us never really achieve adulthood in our parents' minds: they remember too well when we could not be trusted with the kettle, and it kind of sticks. Living apart from them successfully goes a long way to changing that perception: independence and achievement in the adult world is not really deniable in the long term and if their worst fears for you are not realised it may become easier for them to accept your decision. I do not know how they view your prospects, but I read that many religious people do not grasp that it is possible to live a good and moral life without faith; and so they may anticipate you will damage yourself by the choices you make for yourself: from what you say they are already pleasantly surprised by your ability: that will surely have its effect over time, I think.

I have no real advice to give here but I will say that it is unlikely you can change them through argument and it will probably just upset all of you if you try. So far as your conscience allows, live as they would wish you to live without religion: and where the demands of their moral code are unacceptable to you - well you are grown up and they do not need to know about all that you do. Sometimes it is kinder to say nothing and although I would not tell outright lies if directly challenged it is sometimes possible to reach a modus vivendi through careful omission.

Perhaps that is not open to you, but you will find your own path. However you go about it, I wish you well.
 
This seems less like a religion problem and more a controlling parents problem - exacerbated by a religion that values obedience and authority. All I can suggest is not to bring the topic up with them. And if you go back to Mexico to live, don't live with them if at all possible.
 
I never understood the notion that religion = values. If anything I see religion as a lack of values.

If my parents did the same, i would simply ask them to convince me as to why I should believe in a magical invisible man living in the sky who watches everything everyone does. I would ask them for examples of the things god has done, etc.

More importantly, I would ask them how they know that out of the 10s of 1000s of one true religions, how they know theirs is the right one.
 
Ask them questions back... don't let them tell you what's wrong with your beliefs--make them defend theirs--soon the conversations will stop. Ask them why they think they can feel or experience anything without a brain? Ask them about the brain damaged people. (Google "Clive Wearing")--where's a soul when a brain is damaged? How can someone "watch over" you without eyes? How and why would god be jealous or angry or loving without any brain or any measurable qualities at all? Does he have a "choice"? What is "free will" if we all have different temptations and brains and experiences and preferences? How can god be a "he" without genitals or a Y chromosome? Where did Jesus get his Y chromosome. How did people know about god-- how did the people writing about him distinguish him from a voice in their head? etc.

Act like you want to believe but you just can't get good answers. How do they know their beliefs are true? Who wrote them? Who told them? How are they different from the myriad of beliefs of people past and present who were clearly wrong? Why is there no scientific prescience in the bible? Why would god need to kill his kid who was him when it was his plan that got messed up in the first place. If you raise your kids poorly, do you blame them?

How can an "all loving" anything invent and send his "children" to hell? What would the point be? What finite crime is worth an infinite punishment. Couldn't anyone scare readily scare people into believing anything with promises of eternal rewards and threats of eternal damnation for doubt?

People know not to manipulate me regarding faith, because I'll be asking them some hard questions about their own-- mostly "how do you know"?? and "How can you see all these other people that have been wrong and not imagine that you might be too?" And what's so virtuous about being able to belief an unbelievable story? Why would that be god's favorite "virtue"? Would that be a virtue in your children?

Everybody is going to hell is somebody's religion for not believing the right thing. Christians are going to Muslim hell... and they can't get to the highest Mormon heaven unless they convert... and they missed the Heavan's Gate spaceship... and they've been fooled by Xenu and thetans--

Your parents have been brainwashed by the people to trust to imagine that they and their beloved children will go to hell unless they believe the right thing. This is a horribly manipulative fear. I don't think I could have a child if I believed there was the possibility that child could go to hell. Hopefully your questions can open up your parents mind so they can let go of this fear which must be weighing on them. Point out that you are not "omni-benevolent" and you certainly wouldn't punish anyone eternally for a finite crime--you cannot imagine a "loving god" who would do so either.
 
Here's anther thing. Give them a list of requirements you would need in order to change your mind. Then ask them for their list of requirements to change their minds. And ou can compare who is being open minded and who isn't. If their answer is "nothing" then they aren't being open and this can be pointed out. Some examples of things that I require to change my mind.

I would need for God to manifest himself before me. I would need to see and touch him and interact with him. This, while not proving God exists, would be convincing for me to believe it. It would however be much more convincing if in the process it left evidence that remained to help rule out delusions.

I would require that the Bible make some prediction that isn't vague. Such as somewhere in the Bible it said something big would happen on an exact date and time and location and on that date, time, and location that big event actually happened.

I would need to see a divine miracle. Something that could only be a miracle. Something that could be tested and observed. An amputee suddenly getting their limb(s) back upon prayer would be a good example.

There are many others, but this gives you the idea.
 
Hi Snuff, and welcome to the forums.

First, don't worry about starting a new topic. Every individual has issues unique to his or her own life, so if that's what the topic is intended to discuss, it's okay to voice your individual concerns. This is a moderated forum, so unlike in some places I know, people can generally feel free to ask for personal advice without being attacked.

I don't know if I have much to add, save what we usually talk about. I'll leave it up to you when and if you want to reveal more details, as well as to share more of the stories that have come out of your family. In addition to religious issues, there's probably a lot you could discuss with the folks in the General Skepticism & Paranormal section, based on what you've told me. You're a better storyteller than I am, and the people around here like to listen to a good story. So don't be afraid to share your experiences, to go into details, to talk about what you've learned, or to offer advice to others.

For the time being, you might want to clarify a few minor details. (I think you gave people the impression that you're from Mexico, when you meant to say that your heritage is Mexican.) Also, if you want to talk about how your beliefs have changed over time, this is certainly the place to do it, and it might help shed some light for others on how you arrived at your current position.

See you around.
 
articulett said:
Everybody is going to hell is somebody's religion for not believing the right thing. Christians are going to Muslim hell... and they can't get to the highest Mormon heaven unless they convert... and they missed the Heavan's Gate spaceship... and they've been fooled by Xenu and thetans--
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A slight factual nitpick about the Muslim hell. This belief is only true for the fundamentalist and conservative leaning moderate Muslims. The more liberal leaning Islamic denominations are fairly tolerant of other "people of the book," much like the Muslim ruling class of the middle ages was when they held most of Europe and the Middle East. Since Christians and Jews worship the same God, they still go to heaven, just to a separate part of it that's been reserved for them.

Otherwise yes, it's true that different religions make a lot of mutually exclusive claims about reality and about each other. Also, thanks for the advice you offered. These are just the sort of questions that people like her parents, based on what I've heard, haven't given much thought to.
 
Snuffie
May I add a welcome to the forum. As you can see, you get really good responses from people here. As is usual, I really like articulett's post.

Perhaps I can add one suggestion. Have a look for 'Assertion Training'. This needs a bit of study and, above all, practising out loud the exchanges that are possible because such practice gives the confidence to remain in control of the situation, and you achieve the rsult you want in a harmonious way. Of course, it's not infallible, but might just be worth a try.
 
"What they said."

Regarding parental control - almost ANYTHING a fledgling child does that differs from the choices the parents made can be a problem. That is called "being a parent." Forgive them, and get ready to sympathize when you become a parent. You can be friends with your parents, but the parent relationship will always be different from that of other friends.

I think my Jewish mother and your mother would get along quite well. They can share tips on how to try to guilt us "back into the fold."

Good luck,

CT
 
Silentknight said:
Hi Snuff, and welcome to the forums.

I don't know if I have much to add, save what we usually talk about. I'll leave it up to you when and if you want to reveal more details, as well as to share more of the stories that have come out of your family. In addition to religious issues, there's probably a lot you could discuss with the folks in the General Skepticism & Paranormal section, based on what you've told me. You're a better storyteller than I am, and the people around here like to listen to a good story. So don't be afraid to share your experiences, to go into details, to talk about what you've learned, or to offer advice to others.
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Ah, I'll get to that someday.

Silentknight said:
For the time being, you might want to clarify a few minor details. (I think you gave people the impression that you're from Mexico, when you meant to say that your heritage is Mexican.) Also, if you want to talk about how your beliefs have changed over time, this is certainly the place to do it, and it might help shed some light for others on how you arrived at your current position.
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Whoops...well, yeah, my heritage is Mexican. I was born in the US, but my upbringing and main language is from that country South of the Border.

Let me clarify on a few things that I seemed to have missed, and perhaps to answer the generous replies I've got from a lot of you.

The most common advice I got was to rationally cope with my family or ask questions concerning their faith and the bible. The problem I see with that is that I went through that route before although sometimes I wasn't as mature as I wished I was when my patience with them runs thin (to be explained further down). My family is not a big supporter of thinking in a different route.:o They do not stay calm for long if I start attacking their beliefs. I tried this with my mother and if it isn't her calling me a moron when her patience has shot out, it is her looking away from me as if that would help her be gone from my conversation. This usually makes me very mad.

Godless Dave has pointed out that it seems more like I have a controlling problem in the household. That is true. My parents have controlled my life for a good twenty years or so and scold me if I step out of the barriers they have set for me, so in most cases I didn't have a very happy childhood or even decent teenage/young adult years. I might have filled the gaps of the cliché god-hating atheist, but I came to the conclusion that there was no god until I decided to question my parent's beliefs and virtues and ask myself if what they have done to me is right. My boyfriend was there the night my parents went psycho on me and kicked me out (until they regretted what they done and tried to get me back to their home again, whereupon I permanently left for Sweden) and he compared what my parents had done to O Brian from 1984.

So yes, my problem is more than just me coming out Atheist, it is also trying to live by myself - or at least completely away from my family - and undo the damage my parents have left on me as a result. I could not speak up to voice my opinions - I would be compared to a lowlife. I could not stay out late at night with my friends - my parents assumed the worst of me. I felt that me being a good daughter to them was wasted because it seems that they always never let me breathe or at least think for myself. The only one I could go to with my problems was not them, but one of my many aunts who at least treated me like I was a person. It really hurts me when my own parents have very little interest in my writing career and my views on atheism and my thoughts in general. I think the atheism is what finally snapped it in for them. To them, I guess that solves the case in me being a bad child:rolleyes:

This is where my angerproblems stem from and why I sometimes yell back at them despite common sense urging me not to. I am very quick to snap at people who question me and am not as patient as I used to be. From SusanB's suggestion, I do need Assertion Training. Mostly to kick some life into me, but also to see if I can truly hold an argument with my family without it shattering in my face or forcing to fold over for fear of a controlling punishment.

And maybe someday, they'll embrace my atheism side and all the good parts of me.:)

-Snuffie
 
Just make some swedish friends. Unless you're dead center in the swedish bible belt noone will care about your beliefs (and even in the most Christian parts you will be ok), build your own life and you will stop worrying about being "accepted" by your parents.
 
Bluefire said:
Just make some swedish friends. Unless you're dead center in the swedish bible belt noone will care about your beliefs (and even in the most Christian parts you will be ok), build your own life and you will stop worrying about being "accepted" by your parents.
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Right after I learn enough Swedish:D
 
You'll be fine, Snuff-- few of us were as far along the road as you were upon leaving home. It is a time for you to push away from your family anyhow. It's the best way to get out on your own and to live for yourself. There will be time later to mend fences and talk about "other things"

It's fine to be angry and defensive and hurt right now. Your parents can't help what they believe and they can't help fearing for your "eternity". Give them some time as you get comfortable in your own life, and trust that there will be a time when this is less of an issue. I suspect they'll forgo the discussion rather than lose you, and their opinions will matter less as you build your own adult life without "needing" them.

I've heard atheists tell people that god hasn't spoken to them, but they are open to getting such a message. This puts the ball in "god's" court. And you can claim that god would realize if you were faking it anyhow. The believer can feel lucky for having whatever sign that they think they've gotten, and you can learn about confirmation bias and how (along with the notion that faith is good) humans can be made to believe most anything.

If it's good, it's due to "god" or faith... if it's bad, it's because you didn't have enough faith... you need to pray harder (chant more, suffer more, work the program harder, etc.) or god has "his reasons" --and you have to "trust it's part of his plan".

These are well known mechanisms for manipulating large groups of people, and all woo uses some form of it. Understanding one brand, helps inoculate you from others.
 
I have nothing intelligent to add.
I simply wish you to enjoy your life and try to enjoy your family. As much as the let you.


It's one of the things I hate the most about religion. It makes the tradition more important than the people.
 
joobz said:
I have nothing intelligent to add.
I simply wish you to enjoy your life and try to enjoy your family. As much as the let you.


It's one of the things I hate the most about religion. It makes the tradition more important than the people.
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That was a pretty intelligent comment, in my opinion.

Snuffie, I really have nothing intelligent to add, save endorsing joobz's advice. In your situation, I would confront my parents with biblical quotations, and I would tell them I cannot trust people whose beliefs stem from a book where a man is praised for his willingness to sacrifice his son (remember Abraham and Isaac?). But that's probably a bad idea in your case.
 
You might consider telling your family that if they make one more remark about your Atheism you'll become gay. ;)
 
SnuffSnuff said:
Despite this, she still tries to ‘knock sense into me’ with conversations that wrap around me admitting that everything I do is within God’s will.
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Have you tried telling her that God obviously wants you to be an atheist? If everything you do is according to God's will, how could it not be?
 
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