Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

Pardalis said:
You still haven't explained the difference intelligently.
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Of course I have. If you can't understand the difference then it just shows you're huge naivety about the whole issue. A naivety which is becoming increasingly apparent, and orbably accounts for your frequent resorting to substanceless and childish quips


You even admitted yourself of making it up and it being a mere semantic evasion.
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Where did I say I made it up? Of course I haven't made it up. Oliver has even been kind enough to give you a link.

And where did I say it was a semantic evasion. I remember saying Zionists use it as an evasion and a tactic.
 
Tin Foil Timothy said:
There isn't a small 'z' zionist movement. It's just a term sometimes used for those who believe Israel has a right to exist.

In fact I don't even think 'zionism' exists with a small 'z' apart from some pointless nomenclature. Seriously, why does there even need to be a term for someone who believes Israel has a right to exist? What's the term for someone who believes America has a right to exist, or Italy has a right to exist.

It's just a deflection, a diversion.
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:rolleyes:

You're just making it up as you go along, aren't you?
 
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Pardalis said:
:rolleyes:

You're just making it up as you go along, aren't you?
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You've really have absolutely no idea have you?

read it again ...

There isn't a small 'z' zionist movement. It's just a term sometimes used for those who believe Israel has a right to exist.

Please just do yourself a favor and go away and learn about it. All you are doing is making yourself look naive and foolish to those who understand it.

Remember you earlier asked me to elaborate on 'humanitarian' ? :eye-poppi

Surely you can see that was a sign you should throw in the towel until you're more educated?
 
You haven't answered this part of my earlier post:

Pardalis said:
What I keep telling you is that organizations like Hamas and countries like Iran (for example) don't want Jews to have their homeland in Israel, this is what this is all about.

You can't have it both ways. Jews already have their homeland, it's called Israel. Whether you like how it was created is beyond the point now. It exists now. Since you agree that this is a good thing for Jews to have their homeland, you should stop defending those who seek to destroy it.
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Tin Foil Timothy said:
Please just do yourself a favor and go away and learn about it. All you are doing is making yourself look naive and foolish to those who understand it.
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I'm being naive about your made up word "zionism"?

The only definition you offer of the word is this:
There isn't a small 'z' zionist movement. It's just a term sometimes used for those who believe Israel has a right to exist.
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which is complete and utterly made up crap. How can you expect anyone to understand a word you made up?

The is only one definition of Zionism.
 
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Yes, it's a POv that Israel sits on stolen land. There's a couple of facets to it though. The first is the radical Islam drive 'em into the sea, the second, the PC view that pits Israelis as colonialists whore are displacing the indigenous population.

As to the first one, that's obvious.

As to the second, it's sometimes omitted that the UN gave the green light to form the basis of what is now "Israel", so in effect Israel was created by the world. The PC demand a one state solution with equal rights given to the indigenous and use the charge of imperialism as a defense to that argument.

In effect, hastening the demise of Israel as it was intended to be.
 
Tin Foil Timothy said:
There wasn't a question, just some nonsense statement making stupid and false accusations that I am defending the view of destroying Israel. Go and have a lie down before you hemorrhage.
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Let's make it simple. Let's backtrack and start over.

1) do you want Jews to have their homeland? Yes or no?

2) Israel is the current Jews' homeland? Yes or no?

3) If you answer 'yes' to question 2), then do you want Israel to remain the Jews' homeland? Yes or no?
 
Stout said:
Yes, it's a POv that Israel sits on stolen land. There's a couple of facets to it though. The first is the radical Islam drive 'em into the sea, the second, the PC view that pits Israelis as colonialists whore are displacing the indigenous population.

As to the first one, that's obvious.

As to the second, it's sometimes omitted that the UN gave the green light to form the basis of what is now "Israel", so in effect Israel was created by the world.
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It would seem to me that TFT is claiming that Israel has the right to exist within its former borders, but does not have the right to colonize the occupied territories. Thus allowing the claim to Israel but not the claim to Greater Israel.
 
gdnp said:
It would seem to me that TFT is claiming that Israel has the right to exist within its former borders
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Neither TFT nor Oliver seem to think that any of the former borders are legitimate. For them the very implementation of Israel is "theft".
 
Main Entry:
Zi·on·ism
Pronunciation:
\ˈzī-ə-ˌni-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1896
: an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel
— Zi·on·ist \-nist\ adjective or noun
— Zi·on·is·tic \ˌzī-ə-ˈnis-tik\ adjective




There were no "lowercase z" entries that I could find, in case anyone's wondering.
 
gdnp said:
It would seem to me that TFT is claiming that Israel has the right to exist within its former borders, but does not have the right to colonize the occupied territories. Thus allowing the claim to Israel but not the claim to Greater Israel.
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Gotcha.

Sometimes that stolen land argument is used in different ways. There's the get out of the West bank and retreat to the pre 1967 borders aspect and then there's the greater, Israel is evil and has no "right" to dictate to the indigenous population about pretty much anything.

Pragmatically, a retreat to the pre '67 borders would allow for the implementation of the two state solution ( IMHO ) but that would put a significant percentage of Israel's citizens within "crappy rocket" range and before that solution can even be considered, I can see why Israel would want to make sure there's no "funny business" going on in the Palestinian government, like a clause in their charter calling for Israel's destruction.


1337m4n. AFIK the big z, little z thing was made up here. It's workable, I suppose, but why not just say "right wing extremists" instead ? AS the theory goes, we can call the settler movement the Big Z Zionists, but I'm unsure whether we can apply that label to "regular" Israelis. Maybe in a fit of passion/rage ?
 
Pardalis said:
Let's make it simple. Let's backtrack and start over.

1) do you want Jews to have their homeland? Yes or no?
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Exclusively?

The problem is that, while it is our homeland, it's the homeland of other peoples, too. I fail to see how claiming some exclusive dominion over it is anything short of racism.
 
Pardalis said:
Neither TFT nor Oliver seem to think that any of the former borders are legitimate. For them the very implementation of Israel is "theft".
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Look, Goury. If the minority of native Canadians take a majority of Canada by declaring the "State of Canadian Natives" or whatever, don't you agree that this would be an act of theft, especially if they kick you out of the place where you are right now? Are you that ignorant that you don't understand those simple things?

Now I don't really care that much about the borders anyway because I just would love to see that there is peace one day in a near future. My point concerning Hamas however is, that people who do not accept the state of Israel, do have every right to do so. You know, there is now law that says: "You shall not complain about your land being stolen". :p

So what did you expect? That all Palestinians just say "Oh crap" and go away? :confused:

Also, I think that there will be no peace down there because an enforcement to get the seddlers out of Westbank will split the Israeli society. I even assume this issue might have the potential for a civil war in Israel.
 
Oliver said:
Look, Goury. If the minority of native Canadians take a majority of Canada by declaring the "State of Canadian Natives" or whatever, don't you agree that this would be an act of theft, especially if they kick you out of the place where you are right now?
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Would they take it by force or would they take it by having it given to them by the Canadian government?

To say that no land was stolen in Palestine is a bit silly, but why do you overlook the Ottoman's control over that land? They owned it, according to their land code (1895 I think?) so they could legally sell it to whomever had the cash. This happened to be the Zionists.

-If you're living in an apartment building and the property is sold is the new landlord obligated to renew your lease once it's up, or can they evict you and bring in anyone they wish? Could this apply to Israel/Palestine in legal terms?

Could you tell me how much land was 'stolen' in the years leading up to 1948 (by force or swindling) as opposed to how much land was purchased legally by the Jews from the Ottomans?
 
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