Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth

[Christopher7]

I gave you the chance. Everyone who has an interest in the truth should know about the December FAQs.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_12_2007.htm

Now, is that an explanation? Please retract your incorrect claim.

Then explain why the floors would have resisted.

It doesn't explain how the core collapsed nor does it take into consideration that most of the falling debris was ejected outside the building. It doesn't establish where the energy necessary to hurdle a large number of 4 ton framing sections 500 - 600 feet came from or the mechanism that transferred vertical kinetic energy into horizontal kinetic energy or where the energy to pulverize all the concrete came from.

 

[ref]

When they killed Bobby Kennedy, 3 hours after I voted for him.

So that makes you, what, 60+ years old? Not that it matters, just to differentiate you from the teenie truthers.

 

[Bell]

It doesn't explain how the core collapsed nor does it take into consideration that most of the falling debris was ejected outside the building. It doesn't establish where the energy necessary to hurdle a large number of 4 ton framing sections 500 - 600 feet came from or the mechanism that transferred vertical kinetic energy into horizontal kinetic energy or where the energy to pulverize all the concrete came from.

To try and explain this to you, I've made up a Heiwa-like experiment:

Take a couple of crates, say 6. Put them ontop of each other. Now get hold of the crate at the bottom and slowly turn it along it's X-axis, like this:

[ ] ---> / /
[ ] --> / /
[ ] -> / /

What happenes? What kind of kinetic energy was involved?

 

[beachnut]

Found that Gage along with Jones and other failed 911Truth experts sent a letter to NIST for changes! They were shot down because they were all stupid ideas. http://www.911proof.com/NIST.pdf If you want to see the NIST WWW-SMACK-DOWN, grab it before they send it to the bit bucket because to an engineer, NIST called Gage and company dolts, but without using dolt.

The NIST letter back to Gage, is used by Gage and delusion inclined 911 conspiracy theorists to spread and support more delusions. They say that NIST said – “we are unable to provide a full explanation- of the total collapse." But they leave out the rest of the story.

NIST said after collapse started, the WTC was doomed, so to speak. This is like falling off a cliff, all you have to show is the initiation, and the fall takes care of itself.

I have seen some idiots around the Internet post this stupid stuff. To see a bunch of idiots spewing junk on 911 search:

“We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse”

The stupid floods the vast wasteland of undereducated fools who repeat 911Truth delusions as if they were backed with evidence. It is scary to think this many idiots are running around, but why would anyone post the same NIST crap save 911Truth delusion seekers. Rational people figured out why the WTC fell the first day. The idiots who post this tripe are not engineers, but they post the delusions of idiots on 911 who once were professional somethings, now frauds and liars. The Internet Truth-dolts-on-911 don’t understand a single thing they post; means they post crap and pure delusions from others, they have no ability in engineering to figure out 911 and the stuff they post is false, so they repeat failed ideas. Failed ideas based on biased dolts-on-911 who have nothing better to do than apologize for terrorists and mislead other people who lack knowledge on 911 (some of them just pure nuts, or stupid on 911 issues, math, and physics, they adopt the crazy ideas as their own).

The NIST report clearly states after initiation of collapse the building will continue to fall. If any of the idiots-on-911 I found searching the key words above were a structural engineers, they would understand; if they studied physics they would understand, if they had a grasp of cause and effect (taught in first grade), they could understand what NIST means. But they prefer deranged, delusional poppycock of Gage and other idiots-on-911. 911Truth is a delusion filled collection of people with failed ideas on 911; 7 years and no clue, no evidence just people repeating dumb ideas.

The chief structural engineer for the WTC agrees with NIST!

What NIST really said! And what the Gage dolts-on-911 can’t refute except with hearsay, lies and fantasy. That is called failure.

http://www.911proof.com/NIST.pdf

 

[funk de fino]

It doesn't explain how the core collapsed nor does it take into consideration that most of the falling debris was ejected outside the building. It doesn't establish where the energy necessary to hurdle a large number of 4 ton framing sections 500 - 600 feet came from or the mechanism that transferred vertical kinetic energy into horizontal kinetic energy or where the energy to pulverize all the concrete came from.

As I suspected you moved the goalposts. When the floors were removed from the core and perimeter columns they lost their support and they collapsed. This is why you still see some of the core standing sometime after the rst of the collapse. The perimeter columns fell out and away from the building as they should have.

It is an explanation for collapse propogation that you said did not exist. All the concrete was not pulverised, this is another lie from Gage. Even Jones disputes this.

Why not man up and say you were wrong?

 

[funk de fino]

I think someone has forgotten how tall the buildings were.

 

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

Found that Gage along with Jones and other failed 911Truth experts sent a letter to NIST for changes! They were shot down because they were all stupid ideas. http://www.911proof.com/NIST.pdf If you want to see the NIST WWW-SMACK-DOWN, grab it before they send it to the bit bucket because to an engineer, NIST called Gage and company dolts, but without using dolt.

NIST Statement: "Your letter further asserts that NIST failed to take into account interviews of emergency personnel that suggested the presence of bombs in the towers. NIST reviewed all of the interviews conducted by the FDNY of firefighters (500 interviews) and in addition conducted its own set of interviews with emergency responders and building moccupants. Taken as a whole, the interviews did not support the contention that explosives played a role in the collapse of the WTC towers." [emphasis mine]

In the immortal words of Ms. Tina Turner: "Boom. Shakka. Lakka. Boom."

 

[GlennB]

... or the mechanism that transferred vertical kinetic energy into horizontal kinetic energy

It's called "bouncing", Chris. We had this discussion with Heiwa and I hope you can do better. Drop an object vertically onto an edge and it can fly sideways as a result. The example used with Heiwa was a table knife dropped onto the edge of a table, but many other examples will occur to you. The idea that vertical motion can only ever remain as vertical motion not only defies our knowledge of physics but defies everyday experience too.

... or where the energy to pulverize all the concrete came from.

"all" the concrete was not pulverised. Not even close. Why do you think it was? Hoffman's dust analysis (that even he has abandoned) ? See many related threads/posts via the search facility for evidence to the contrary.

p.s. you didn't respond to my question about why you are still posting the "grappler" photo as evidence of steel temperatures at GZ, when we both agree it was taken at night.

 

[Heiwa]

It's called "bouncing", Chris. We had this discussion with Heiwa and I hope you can do better. Drop an object vertically onto an edge and it can fly sideways as a result. The example used with Heiwa was a table knife dropped onto the edge of a table, but many other examples will occur to you. The idea that vertical motion can only ever remain as vertical motion not only defies our knowledge of physics but defies everyday experience too.

Exactly - when it bounces on an edge sideways, it does not damage the edge. And when it bounces straight up ... it does not damage what it bounces on. Simple structural damage analysis shows that upper part of WTC1 would just bounce ... and stop, if dropped on lower part of WTC1!

Many do not believe that first but showing how pizza boxes, etc, etc, react when you drop something (other pizza boxes, etc, etc.) on them they fully understand. It is quite simple, really.

 

[dtugg]

Many do not believe that first but showing how pizza boxes, etc, etc, react when you drop something (other pizza boxes, etc, etc.) on them they fully understand. It is quite simple, really.

Yes, we fully understand that you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about. Your "Heiwa type experiments" prove that.

 

[Gravy]

As I suspected you moved the goalposts. When the floors were removed from the core and perimeter columns they lost their support and they collapsed. This is why you still see some of the core standing sometime after the rst of the collapse. The perimeter columns fell out and away from the building as they should have.

Yup. More evidence of this is the fact that the L-brackets (truss seats) attached to the columns, whiich supported the floor trusses, were all bent downward below the collapse initation zones, proving that the floors were attached and were pushed downwards, causing the truss-to-seat failure. This is not what we'd see if the walls were "blown" outwards first.

The much bigger problem for the conspiracists is that these detonations that were supposedly large enough to hurl thousands of tons of steel about and turn thousands of tons of concrete to powder cannot be seen or heard by any means. Nor can their secondary effects be seen: the destroyed buildings nearby and broken windows for miles, the barotrauma injuries and deafness in bystanders, and the huge quantities of lighter shrapnel that would have been projected in advance of the heavier steel, all over lower Manhattan, killing untold numbers of people.

I'm not aware of a single truther who has tried to explain what magical materials were used that could break the laws of physics in so many ways, several times. Their claims are completely moronic.

Why not man up and say you were wrong?

You're kidding, right?

 

[GlennB]

Exactly - when it bounces on an edge sideways, it does not damage the edge. And when it bounces straight up ... it does not damage what it bounces on....

When a knife bounces on the edge of a table, the table is only minimally damaged. They are so dissimilar in mass. However, the knife may still bounce sideways, i.e. acquire a component of horizontal movement.

When a massive steel beam (quite possibly still attached to a massive and falling structure above) falls on a similar steel beam (still attached to a massive structure below), both will be significantly damaged.

The subject under discussion was the conversion of vertical movement into movement with a horizontal component. This happens routinely.

 

[Bell]

When a knife bounces on the edge of a table, the table is only minimally damaged. They are so dissimilar in mass. However, the knife may still bounce sideways, i.e. acquire a component of horizontal movement.

When a massive steel beam (quite possibly still attached to a massive and falling structure above) falls on a similar steel beam (still attached to a massive structure below), both will be significantly damaged.

The subject under discussion was the conversion of vertical movement into movement with a horizontal component. This happens routinely.

I don't agree with this hypotheses. Mine is that once most/all the floors were destroyed, huge parts of the outside structure remained standing. This was not one massive side, but made up of hundreds of interlocking beams, unsupported. Somewhere along the standing part, the interlockings gave way and the whole section started to fall sideways, pulling the rest of the side with it. Something like this:

| ----> | ---> |
| ----> | ---> | ----> /
| ---> / ---> / ----> /
| --> | ---> / --> __|
| --> | --> | --> |
| --> | --> | --> |

 

[A W Smith]

I don't agree with this hypotheses. Mine is that once most/all the floors were destroyed, huge parts of the outside structure remained standing. This was not one massive side, but made up of hundreds of interlocking beams, unsupported. Somewhere along the standing part, the interlockings gave way and the whole section started to fall sideways, pulling the rest of the side with it. Something like this:

| ----> | ---> |
| ----> | ---> | ----> /
| ---> / ---> / ----> /
| --> | ---> / --> __|
| --> | --> | --> |
| --> | --> | --> |

Once the truss/perimeter connections were severed, The column trees peeled away like a mesh fabric, simple as that. aerial photos of debris on west street illustrate that. The Silent film video Chris posted above shows no explosions at all that I can see. Just the release of a compressed volume of air, smoke and debris within the building an acre square and 1100 feet high.

 

[Seymour Butz]

Once the truss/perimeter connections were severed, The column trees peeled away like a mesh fabric, simple as that. aerial photos of debris on west street illustrate that. The Silent film video Chris posted above shows no explosions at all that I can see. Just the release of a compressed volume of air, smoke and debris within the building an acre square and 1100 feet high.

Speaking of silent....

Does anyone have any info on how loud the actual collapses were?

I ask because of the common claim that the explosives would have been covered up by THAT sound. I believe that the interior SPL levels would have been around 190dB by going here : http://www.makeitlouder.com/Decibel Level Chart.txt and by doing some cypherin' (Jethro D Bodine style) that the exterior SPL levels would have been AT LEAST 140-150dB.

Or, has anyone taken the probable energy released, spread over time of the collapses, and come up with a reasonable SPL range for the actual collapses?

 

[Heiwa]

When a knife bounces on the edge of a table, the table is only minimally damaged. They are so dissimilar in mass. However, the knife may still bounce sideways, i.e. acquire a component of horizontal movement.

When a massive steel beam (quite possibly still attached to a massive and falling structure above) falls on a similar steel beam (still attached to a massive structure below), both will be significantly damaged.

The subject under discussion was the conversion of vertical movement into movement with a horizontal component. This happens routinely.

Yes, the upper part of WTC 1 had obviously much less mass than he lower part of WTC1 ... and should therefore bounce? Not really - you have to look at what happens locally to the structures of the parts.

You are right - both parts will be damaged. And when the smaller part is damaged enough there is no further damage.

NIST and Bazant disagree completely. The smaller mass and weaker structure crush down the bigger mass and stronger structure by compressing the latter, step by step! Happens all the time according them. Never seen before according me.

BTW - topic is AE911truth.org . Join it! Very nice people.

 

[beachnut]

Heiwa does failed studies on 911, Gage repeats pure stupid and lies on 911.

Between the two of them they have failed to understand 911 and make up lies to blame 911 on you and I. They have succeeded in making apologies for terrorist.

Does Gage believe in the no-plane delusion of Heiwa?
Does Heiwa believe thermite did it like Gage?
Does it matter which delusion these guys have? No, dirt dumb ideas are easy to see and Heiwa failed work begins with the delusion of no planes on 911. So we have to believe in some holographic projector, and bombs that are silent and have no blast effects.

Two 911Truth failures with delusions, no makes them up first hand, the other repeats the lies and failures of other people too dirt dumb stupid to figure out 911 in the first place.

For failed ideas on 911 see Gage, for real dumb ideas on 911 see Heiwa's work. http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist.htm

If you harbor delusions on 911 you are material for membership in the cult that shares the lies of AE911truth.

ROBERTSON: Well, I’d just like to say one other thing, and that is that I've been in the unfortunate situation of having to deal with the relatives of those who perished at the WTC, and I must tell you that they are all looking for closure. And most, the vast majority, have found it. And I believe that this discussion about controlled demolition is [an] irresponsible act, and it's hurting, hurting a lot of those people unnecessarily, and I think we should put this to bed and move on to more constructive ways of life.

The chief structural engineer for the WTC agrees impacts and fire destroyed the WTC. So the real engineer who built and designed the WTC essentially calls the ideas of Gage and Heiwa pure nut case. But he tries to do with subtle clues to let Jones and Gage figure out 911 without all the stupid ideas added.

Robertson knows Heiwa and Jones/Gage have no evidence.

 

[GlennB]

I don't agree with this hypotheses. Mine is that once most/all the floors were destroyed, huge parts of the outside structure remained standing. This was not one massive side, but made up of hundreds of interlocking beams, unsupported. Somewhere along the standing part, the interlockings gave way and the whole section started to fall sideways, pulling the rest of the side with it. Something like this:

| ----> | ---> |
| ----> | ---> | ----> /
| ---> / ---> / ----> /
| --> | ---> / --> __|
| --> | --> | --> |
| --> | --> | --> |

The only point I'm trying to make here is that downwards motion may be translated into sideways motion, through impact, thus explaining the sideways ejection of debris without calling for explosives.

 

[T.A.M.]

Speaking of silent....

Does anyone have any info on how loud the actual collapses were?

I ask because of the common claim that the explosives would have been covered up by THAT sound. I believe that the interior SPL levels would have been around 190dB by going here : http://www.makeitlouder.com/Decibel Level Chart.txt and by doing some cypherin' (Jethro D Bodine style) that the exterior SPL levels would have been AT LEAST 140-150dB.

Or, has anyone taken the probable energy released, spread over time of the collapses, and come up with a reasonable SPL range for the actual collapses?

One problem. The explosions...the alleged DEMOLITION explosions would have had to occur IN ORDER FOR the building to collapse (in truther theory). So HOW could a collapse that requires said explosions to occur for IT to occur, cover up those explosions audibly?

TAM

 

[Seymour Butz]

One problem. The explosions...the alleged DEMOLITION explosions would have had to occur IN ORDER FOR the building to collapse (in truther theory). So HOW could a collapse that requires said explosions to occur for IT to occur, cover up those explosions audibly?

TAM

They couldn't.

Hence the delusional claims of thermite - to start the collapses - AND explosives to clear the way - since the sound would be covered up.