Hafrada is worse than Apartheid

[Texas]

Jew Derangement Syndrome.

Here is what I don't understand about the Lefts obsession with Israel. The entire Middle East is a patchwork of countries 90% of which are less than a hundred years old and whose borders were drawn for them by European nations. Before that Egypt, Iran, and Turkey are the only ancient countries in the region and even those are shadows of their former selves. Before now the Middle East was a hodgepodge of Bedouin tribes continuously at war with each other and living anywhere and everywhere. It took mainly the British to pull those tribes together and then the discovery of oil to allow for "nations" in the region to even be feasible. Should oil disappear then most Middle Eastern "nations" would crumble and revert to their Bedouin roots.

 

[WildCat]

I disagree. I don't think Israel should be exempt at all. Why shouldn't people settle in Israel as long as they are not forcing someone else of the plot of land in the process.

Because as a soverign nation Israel has the right to control its borders, just like every other sovereign nation does. Or at least the ones that haven't decided to start a war with a much stronger country and finds themselves on the stupid end of a blockade.

Unfortunately Israel discriminates on immigration based upon race. I don't like that at all.

Nope, just religion. That's why it's called the Jewish State. It's kind of the reason it exists. But you'll note there's over 1 million Israeli Arabs.

That's what's legal in Israel.

Anyone care to point out the Israeli laws that are "worse than apartheid"? parky76 and The Fool seem to have vanished...

 

[WildCat]

Here is what I don't understand about the Lefts obsession with Israel. The entire Middle East is a patchwork of countries 90% of which are less than a hundred years old and whose borders were drawn for them by European nations. Before that Egypt, Iran, and Turkey are the only ancient countries in the region and even those are shadows of their former selves. Before now the Middle East was a hodgepodge of Bedouin tribes continuously at war with each other and living anywhere and everywhere. It took mainly the British to pull those tribes together and then the discovery of oil to allow for "nations" in the region to even be feasible. Should oil disappear then most Middle Eastern "nations" would crumble and revert to their Bedouin roots.

Yes, but only one of those countries is run by Jews.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yes, but only one of those countries is run by Jews.

He says in a topic that was started by a Jew.

 

[Texas]

The west bank is full of 30 foot concrete walls, checkpoints, Israeli only roads, and various other apartheid measures. These walls and checkpoints are nowhere near the Israeli borders.

Well let's see, did Israel just decide to build walls for a place to paint graffiti or was there another reason? Are those checkpoints in place just to give soldiers a day job or are there other reasons?
Tell me, why does Egypt have a concrete wall on its border with Gaza? Is that an Apartheid" measure or could they have another reason? Why is it than Palestinians are ALWAYS placed in segregated camps when and wherever they happen to be in every Muslim nation in the Middle East? Is it simply "Apartheid "measures or is there something about the Palestinian mindset that makes them not welcomed even amongst their own?

 

[a_unique_person]

Absolutly so why is it "Apartheid" when Israel does not grant the citizenship as the OP has asserted When the entire Middle East and Africa tightly control their borders and tightly control their immigration policies?

I thought I just said, because they were already living there, they weren't immigrants.

There is no blockade of the West Bank so why, in your opinion, has there been one in Gaza? There are no air raids in the West bank so why, in your opinion, are they being conducted in Gaza? There are no rockets being launched from the Fatah controlled West Bank into Israel so why, in your opinion have 3000 rockets been launched from Gaza at Israel in 2008 alone?

There is no blockade, but there are roadblocks and checkpoints that server no purpose, there is a fence going up to create a Bantustan. No blockade, but Israel controls the borders. The proposed solution of Israel amounts to a servile city council. Behave yourself, take what you are given, and you'll be left alone, except land may be arbitrarily taken. No US citizen would ever accept a deal like that.

 

[Texas]

Yes, but only one of those countries is run by Jews.

Here is "Apartheid" Egyptian style

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/77508/Egyptians-open-fire-on-Palestinians

Egyptian border guards have opened fire on Palestinians who breached the border to escape Israel's assault on Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

An Egyptian security official said there were at least five breaches along the nine-mile border and hundreds of Palestinian residents were pouring in.

At least 300 Egyptian border guards have been rushed to the area to reseal the border, the official added on condition on anonymity because he was not authorised to speak to the press.

A resident of the Gaza Strip side of the border, Fida Kishta, said that Egyptian border guards opened fire to drive back the Palestinians.

Residents have also commandeered a bulldozer to open new breaches.

Palestinians reported several people were wounded by the gunfire.

Israeli aircraft earlier bombed the border area in an apparent attempt to destroy cross border tunnels used to smuggle weapons and contraband into the Gaza Strip.

Dr Abdel Qader Higazi, a representative of the Egyptian Doctor's Syndicate in Rafah said Egyptian authorities closed the border crossing after allowing several trucks of medical s

 

[WildCat]

He says in a topic that was started by a Jew.

One living nearly 6,000 miles beyond Hamas missile range, I note.

 

[Texas]

I thought I just said, because they were already living there, they weren't immigrants.


There is no blockade, but there are roadblocks and checkpoints that server no purpose, there is a fence going up to create a Bantustan. No blockade, but Israel controls the borders. The proposed solution of Israel amounts to a servile city council. Behave yourself, take what you are given, and you'll be left alone, except land may be arbitrarily taken. No US citizen would ever accept a deal like that.

What is wrong with Israel controlling its own borders? Also, if the barriers, roadblocks and fences serve no purpose then why has there been NO suicide bombers in all of 2008 within Israel when prior to those measures they were almost a daily occurance??

 

[Texas]

He says in a topic that was started by a Jew.

Is that an appeal to authority?

 

[a_unique_person]

Is that an appeal to authority?

It was a response to a comment by Wildcat on the type of person who disagrees with him.

 

[ddt]

Israel has yet to build one...single...new Arab town or city. They have built hundreds of Jewish towns.

often built on the very same sites where once Arab villages stood. But why the choice between Jewish or Arab towns - why not mixed ones?

It is legal to not sell land to someone because they are an Arab or a Muslim.

Evidence? Or is this just about the JNF, a matter which is currently in the courts?

As you admit yourself, the state still discriminates against Arabs in this respect, as the state agency ILA administers the JNF lands.

But also for proper state lands, that battle is very recent. There's the case of an Israeli Arab Kaadan, who wanted to lease ILA land in a Jewish neighbourhood:

Kaadan told the story to his coworkers at the hospital, and Jewish friends told him to contact the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI). Attorneys Neta Ziv and Dan Yakir, who eventually became close family friends, petitioned the High Court of Justice. The petition filed in 1995 was heard by an expanded panel of five justices, but it took the president of the court, Aharon Barak, until 2000 to declare that even in a state founded on Jewish values, equality must be sacrosanct. Describing the decision as one of the most difficult he had ever made, Barak ruled that in the name of equality, ILA lands must also be accessible to non-Jews. Nevertheless, the court decided that the specific decision on the Kaadans would have to be made by the ILA, which was asked to reconsider the couple's application to lease land in Katzir.

And when he got back to the local ILA board, they tried to weasel out of it with various other pretexts, and in 2006, they awarded him the lease just before a court proceeding (so that there is no jurisprudence about that part).

It is illegal for an Israeli political party to call Israel anything but..."The Jewish State". Yet, it is legal for a political party to call for the forced expulsion of Arabs and Muslims.

So? Isn't it?

Israeli Arab political parties have been banned for having as one of their goals that they wanted to abolish that Israel be "the state of the Jewish people". Only the other day you rallied against European countries that would ban political parties (without providing evidence). Now you endorse it?

The government of Israel only recognizes marriage between Jews.

I'm still amazed that a country that is on the one hand so forward thinking it allows adoption by gay couples, on the other hand still has no (secular) civil marriage. The existence of only religious marriages also hinders the integration of the Jewish and Arab communities.

(btw, how do Israeli atheists marry? Do they have to go abroad?)

 

[a_unique_person]

What is wrong with Israel controlling its own borders? Also, if the barriers, roadblocks and fences serve no purpose then why has there been NO suicide bombers in all of 2008 within Israel when prior to those measures they were almost a daily occurance??

Quite, the West Bank is within Israel's borders, but the people who live within it's borders, who are natives to the country, are not citizens for that country. You might also want to check with the Israeli government if what they control are actually it's borders.

 

[Texas]

al parties (without providing evidence). Now you endorse it?


I'm still amazed that a country that is on the one hand so forward thinking it allows adoption by gay couples, on the other hand still has no (secular) civil marriage. The existence of only religious marriages also hinders the integration of the Jewish and Arab communities.

(btw, how do Israeli atheists marry? Do they have to go abroad?)

Be honest, how long would a Muslim live that married a Jew anywhere in the Middle East?

 

[TriskettheKid]

Be honest, how long would a Muslim live that married a Jew anywhere in the Middle East?

I assume we're not counting Israel?

Or Turkey, though that's not really Middle East.....

 

[Texas]

Quite, the West Bank is within Israel's borders, but the people who live within it's borders, who are natives to the country, are not citizens for that country. You might also want to check with the Israeli government if what they control are actually it's borders.

I think you are a bit confused. The West Bank is only considered "disputed territories" since Israel actually came into control of it due to a war the Arab nations started and lost. Israel has repeatedly agreed to cede control of the West Bank as a part of the 2 state solution. All the Palestinian leadership, be it Fatah or Hamas, has to do is to unconditionally recognize Israel's right to exist and to cease allowing attacks on Israel from either Gaza or the WB. Abbas appears ready and willing to do just that, Hamas on the other hand wants no part of it hence the actions presently being taken..

 

[Texas]

I assume we're not counting Israel?

Or Turkey, though that's not really Middle East.....

I would say that the Muslim may be safer in Israel but not by much since Israeli Arabs still have instances of "honor killings" along with the far right wing Israelis who would not be at all happy.

 

[Texas]

Quite, the West Bank is within Israel's borders, but the people who live within it's borders, who are natives to the country, are not citizens for that country. You might also want to check with the Israeli government if what they control are actually it's borders.

One other point, prior to the war those "natives" were living in Jordan. Once the war ended Israel held the West Bank and the "natives" were left stateless due to the actions of their former country, Jordan, and the rest of the Arab League.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Because as a soverign nation Israel has the right to control its borders, just like every other sovereign nation does. Or at least the ones that haven't decided to start a war with a much stronger country and finds themselves on the stupid end of a blockade.


Nope, just religion. That's why it's called the Jewish State. It's kind of the reason it exists. But you'll note there's over 1 million Israeli Arabs.

That's what's legal in Israel.

Anyone care to point out the Israeli laws that are "worse than apartheid"? parky76 and The Fool seem to have vanished...

The definition of Jewish is not just religion. Or are Atheist Jews banned from being Israeli citizens then?

 

[ddt]

Be honest, how long would a Muslim live that married a Jew anywhere in the Middle East?

What's your point?

But let's get back on track; this was about Hafrada, the segregation policy Israel institutes in the West Bank.

Once upon a time, there was a Jewish girl named Jasmine from Jerusalem, and an Arab boy named Osama from Ramallah. They met and fell in love. And they married (in Cyprus). Then they wanted to live together, as other married couples. Israeli law forbade Osama to enter Israel, so they couldn't live together at Jasmin's place. Conversely, Jasmine only got a temporary permit to enter Ramallah, the place where Osama lived.

In the end, they emigrated to Berlin, Germany.

Sources: here, here, here, here, here, and numerous other places.