Hafrada is worse than Apartheid

[FireGarden]

What? Cutting all instincts of empathy? You lost me. We/they distinctions in that part of the world is millenia old. What Israel is doing is nothing new. Nothing novel.

I don't see the people of the region as being like cats and dogs. Please spend more time reading Haaretz, especially writers like Amira Hass. Look up Israeli organisations like ICAHD and Arab/Israeli groups like http://www.combatantsforpeace.org/ or http://www.taayush.org/new/we.html

A story I remember includes a great Spartacus moment when some anti-'fence' (It's a wall!) demonstrators were arrested:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=511396

None of the Israelis arrested were carrying their identity cards, and when asked their names they all said, "My name is Ahmed Awad."

Here's more on Ahmad Awad:
http://exmypar.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/ahmed-awad-and-non-violent-protest/

 

[a_unique_person]

And I see you have created this thread to prove my point.

You are comparing S. Africa's policies of vastly different legal status for its citizens based on skin color, to Israel's treating people different based on whether or not they're citizens of Israel.

If your bizarre comparison were legitimate, every country in the world is an apartheid regime. But, of course, the comparison falls flat on its face.

But no doubt you will continue with your histrionics, facts be damned.

Sophistry of the highest order. Apartheid was used in South Africa to separate but control another group of people within it's own borders. One of the aims was to ensure those people were not citizens. The people in the Bantustans were not citizens of South Africa.

Perhaps you should read this article by an Israeli Zionist, who looks back and reflects on one the problems that they all hoped would disappear one day.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/i-dream-of-another-israel-20081229-76sc.html

Why is this happening? There are many reasons, many pretexts. We criticise — rightly — many things: the media, the education system, all our successive governments, the US President, the world. But I miss one criticism: the criticism of ourselves. My father used to tell me: if the situation is bad, the first thing to do is to ask yourself if you are right.

 

[BirdStrike]

A bantustan or more commonly black african homeland or simply homeland, was territory set aside for black inhabitants of South Africa and South-West Africa (now Namibia), as part of the policy of apartheid.

WIKI

Is a Bantustan like this a_unique_person?

Three generations of the Hamdallah family have lived in Lebanon. And for three generations not a single member of the family has been allowed to graduate from school, legally marry, or hold a job, or even set foot outside of the rundown camps that have been home to generations of Palestinians.

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency estimates that more than 400,000 Palestinians live in Lebanon — refugees, their children and their children’s children — all denied many basic rights in their adopted homeland on the Mediterranean.

nytimes

 

[The Fool]

Israel did grant citizenship to all those Palestinians who didn't flee Israel.

what sort of citizenship? Equal?

Nope. They were assigned 2nd class citizenship. Something you would find disgusting in your own country but ok in Israel.

 

[BirdStrike]

what sort of citizenship? Equal?

Nope. They were assigned 2nd class citizenship. Something you would find disgusting in your own country but ok in Israel.

If 2nd-class citizenship is bad, how do you feel about no-class citizenship the fool?

Three generations of the Hamdallah family have lived in Lebanon. And for three generations not a single member of the family has been allowed to graduate from school, legally marry, or hold a job, or even set foot outside of the rundown camps that have been home to generations of Palestinians.

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency estimates that more than 400,000 Palestinians live in Lebanon — refugees, their children and their children’s children — all denied many basic rights in their adopted homeland on the Mediterranean.

nytimes

I mean if you're really all about citizenship and such, maybe you should help out the no-class citizens first... they need help way more.... and then work your way up to the second-class citizens.

 

[ddt]

Is a Bantustan like this a_unique_person?

Ah, the tired old tactic of the Israel-apologist-through-thick-and-thin. "Look there, there are also people suffering".

 

[BirdStrike]

Ah, the tired old tactic of the Israel-apologist-through-thick-and-thin. "Look there, there are also people suffering".

Who's apologizing? I am helping you by revealing the no-class citizens.

I mean that's what you are all about right? Righting the wrongs in the world. So here are some no-class citizens for you to help first... on your way to helping the 2nd-class citizens in Israel.

 

[The Fool]

If 2nd-class citizenship is bad, how do you feel about no-class citizenship the fool?





I mean if you're really all about citizenship and such, maybe you should help out the no-class citizens first... and then work your way up to the second-class citizens.

ok I'll help them out. They are all going to go back where they came from....ok with you?

How do you rationalise it to yourself? Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you came to the point of arguing for racial discrimination to be condoned?

 

[BirdStrike]

ok I'll help them out. They are all going to go back where they came from....ok with you?

So these 3 generations of people should just go back to where they came from? Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

How do you rationalise it to yourself? Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you came to the point of arguing for racial discrimination to be condoned?

Hey, you're the one who wants to cleanse Lebanon of 400,000 people. Remember the "go back where they came from" part? Don't freak out at me.

 

[ddt]

Who's apologizing? I am helping you by revealing the no-class citizens.

I mean that's what you are all about right? Righting the wrongs in the world. So here are some no-class citizens for you to help first... on your way to helping the 2nd-class citizens in Israel.

May I remind you that this thread is about the no-class citizens in the West Bank - not about the 2nd-class citizens in Israel.

If you are concerned about the Palestinians in the refugee camps in Lebanon, you could start another thread about it. I'm not holding my breath though.

BTW, underlining words is not smart - it resembles a link. Unless, of course, you actually want people to get tired of looking whether that underline may be a link.

 

[BirdStrike]

May I remind you that this thread is about the no-class citizens in the West Bank - not about the 2nd-class citizens in Israel.

So you want people living in the West Bank to be citizens of Israel? I don't think they would like that idea. And they certainly can't be citizens of Palestine, because it has yet to be.

If you are concerned about the Palestinians in the refugee camps in Lebanon, you could start another thread about it. I'm not holding my breath though.

Point me to your JREF thread about the 3 generations of no-class citizens in Lebanon, I'd be happy to join it. What's the link?

 

[The Fool]

So these 3 generations of people should just go back to where they came from? Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

I'm sure it does. I'm sure you can make pretty much anything sound like pretty much anything else when you have to live with yourself.

Hey, you're the one who wants to cleanse Lebanon of 400,000 people. Remember the "go back where they came from" part? Don't freak out at me.

Lol...returning refugees is ethnic cleansing.....you make me giggle. well, its obvious how you live with your support of racial discrimination isn't it. You make it vanish with hand waving and diversions

 

[Thunder]

I don't know if Hafrada is worse then Apartheid. But it is a close second.

Israel not only refuses to allow back any refugees to Israel..but they even forbid them from returning to the West Bank!! (Israeli logic there)

In the West Bank, Israel has one standard for Arabs..another standard for Jews.

As far as Jews are concerned, the land is "Disputed" and Israel has every right to build homes, roads, schools, towns, etc. Acts of violence, vandalism, arson, and theft, are lent a blind eye.

As far as Arabs are concerned, the land is "Occupied" and Israel has no ability to repair or build new infrastructure for the Arabs. Israel also has no right to approve new building permits, so they immediately destroy any and all Arab structures built without a permit.

Nice to have your cake and eat it too huh?

Yes, Hafrada is pretty @#$%&%$ bad.

 

[BirdStrike]

I'm sure it does. I'm sure you can make pretty much anything sound like pretty much anything else when you have to live with yourself.

Yup. I'm simply horrible.

Lol...returning refugees is ethnic cleansing.....you make me giggle.

Huh? You're the one who is considering descendants of refugees to be refugees themselves. And on top of that you want to send these refugees and the descendants of refugees back where they came from.

well, its obvious how you live with your support of racial discrimination isn't it. You make it vanish with hand waving and diversions

Me? Racial discrimination? You're the one who is considering Lebanese-born descendants of refugees to be stateless refugees. Entirely based upon their background. Talk about discrimination.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Israel sets itself up on land it had no right to be on because other people were living there (and not only that it displaces those people and persecutes them for 60 years) and you are surprised that the people of the region don't want it there?

Israel reaps what it sows.

The Israelis were immigrants to be sure, but the did not replace a Palestinian state because no such state existed. What is special about this region that no immigration should be allowed?

Not only do you completely miss the point you create a straw man at the same time.

Palestine existed as a land whether it was officially a state or not. But you miss the point it's not about being a state for the individuals who lost their land they individually owned.

The argument about Palestine not being a state is a tired now as most people recognize the real human issues, not issues of what the country is officially called on paper

And now onto your strawman ...

Do you similarly feel that people of Middle eastern decent should not be allowed to immigrate to Europe or North America?

Well I've never complained about any immigration to Palestine so I'm not sure how you arrive at that question. I don't have a problem with Jewish people, or even Martian people settling in Palestine.

What I object to is a people being thrown off their land and losing their livelihoods because another group of people decided they were going to set up a country there which gave more rights to one ethno group.

Not to mention the 60 year apartheid and persecution of people based upon their race.

FWIW I think people should be allowed to settle wherever they like as long as it's done legally and morally

 

[Thunder]

The Israelis were immigrants to be sure,

A good 40% of the Israeli-Jewish people are immigrants or descendants of immigrants from Arab and Muslim countries. These people are NOT welcome back, and if they did go back they would be most likely harrassed and/or killed.

What should be done with these 2.5 million Israeli Jews? Send them to Long Island?

 

[WildCat]

Here's a history lesson from the official website of Jordan. Ignore it, read it, I don't really care at this point.

Jewish-occupied Palestine

If you wanna moan about "stateless refugees" the address for your complaint is the Arab League. That's straight from the horses mouth - www.kinghussein.gov.jo.

Uh-oh, King Hussein forgot to substitute the word "Zionist" for "Jewish" and thus cover his butt against charges of anti-semitism! I guess when you're the King you don't have to worry about such things.

 

[WildCat]

Point me to your JREF thread about the 3 generations of no-class citizens in Lebanon, I'd be happy to join it. What's the link?

BirdStrike, it's only an outrage when it's perpetrated by Jews Zionists, get with the pogrom program!

 

[BirdStrike]

Uh-oh, King Hussein forgot to substitute the word "Zionist" for "Jewish" and thus cover his butt against charges of anti-semitism! I guess when you're the King you don't have to worry about such things.

It's good to be the King!

 

[WildCat]

FWIW I think people should be allowed to settle wherever they like as long as it's done legally and morally

Unless the laws are made by Israelis, right?