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Most Overrated Artists...

But paintings like Pollock's, though unique I suppose (in the sense that no one will ever again drip and splash paint onto a canvas in exactly the same way), represent to me pure hype. It seems that every so often, the art world gets bored with carefully constructed masterpieces that pay careful attention to contrast, forms, shadow, etc. and get excited about nonsense (or maybe I just don't get it). This sort of art appears to get the value it does only because high-brow art society types have said it's good.

You make sense to me.

Of course, this discussion would not be complete without the True Art tropes from TV Tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArt
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsAncient
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsAngsty
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsForeign
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsIncomprehensible
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsOffensive
 
Definitely an interesting thread.

As a companion, it would be interesting to see what art people have on display in their homes.. and why.

[looks around living room] I have pictures of people and items that have emotional or spiritual meaning to me. I also have several cat-theme cross-stitch pieces I've done (two framed images with captions, one clock) and several calendars (cute kittens, Dilbert, Jeff Foxworthy jokes). Bob's posted several computer-generated images stemming from his data-analyst days. They're pleasant enough to look at, and he assures me there's actual information being conveyed in those graphics. :p

If something's going to be on display in my home, it needs to be something I find at least reasonably aesthetically pleasing and/or psychologically meaningful (such as providing me amusement, i.e. the aforementioned humor calendars).

Abstract art tends to leave me cold (I can't help thinking that my pets and/or I could do better with fairly trivial effort), and the pretentious drivel art critics tend to hork up doesn't help. There's a definite "we artists are an anointed elite and if you don't agree that we're utter geniuses, then you're probably of sub-human intellect and we couldn't care less what the unwashed masses think" feel to discussions of "fine art" that produce a rather exclusionary effect. This tends to turn people off the whole art world, at least if I'm anywhere near representative (and I really don't think I'm unique in being turned off by self-proclaimed elites).
 
I've made ceramic art before, and I found once I was painting a piece that there were connections between the panels far beyond the connections I'd intended to make. I was surprised at how completely the inside matched the outside.
 
...
the artist/writer who speaks only to his fellow artists and does not care about any other audience. The Dadaists come to mind. The attitude is that "if you don't understand my art, you are somehow inferior and therefore I have license to make fun of you." It's a type of snobbery that irks the hell out of me

This is a common sentiment that I'd like to address.
Of course, artists are people and can be just as rude, arrogant, and pretentious as everyone else, but I think people ascribe these attitudes to artists where they don't really exist.

There's a popular image in film and television of the artist spastically offended when a random guy off the street doesn't immediately see the "genius" of his blank canvas. I've just never seen an attitude like this in real life, but I often see people extrapolate this dubiously from the work.

1) This piece is celebrated by artsy smartsy people and valued in the millions.

2) I don't see what makes it interesting or good.

3) Since they think they're so smart (they must since they're the art establishment)-they must think I'm dumb for not getting it.

But all this is occurring in people's heads, with the artists completely absent from the conversation and pop-cultural artist stereotypes taking their place in the discussion.

Yes, a lot of visual art is not made so that anyone off the street can instantly see the value, this isn't anymore an act of disrespect than a novel published in Russian is an act of disrespect to English speakers.

Or, more directly, a book on advanced quantum physics will be complete gibberish to someone without the background, but for some reason, creating art that is hard to appreciate without a background is seen as condescending, because art is "supposed to be" universal.
 
Thank you. That's precisely my problem. The contemporary usage of the word "art" is so vague I can't see something which is not art under it.




I dare anyone to decipher Klein Blue. "In 1947, Klein began making monochrome paintings, which he associated with freedom from ideas of representation or personal expression." . . .and this is art? There deliberately is no meaning or intention at all.


I agree that Klein Blue is a terminal stage, end of the road, but what might make it interesting is the whole progression--that is, Klein Blue in the context of all the other work he did first. The search is sincere, if maybe desperate or misguided.


When the flush of a new-born sun fell first on Eden's green and gold,
Our father Adam sat under the Tree and scratched with a stick in the mould;
And the first rude sketch that the world had seen was joy to his mighty heart,
Till the Devil whispered behind the leaves, "It's pretty, but is it Art ?"
...
- Rudyard Kipling


This site is funny, and I love Kipling--not sure if this is his poem, too lazy to Google.

But this is one question that never concerns me in my work: Is this art (music?)

... There's a definite "we artists are an anointed elite and if you don't agree that we're utter geniuses, then you're probably of sub-human intellect and we couldn't care less what the unwashed masses think" feel to discussions of "fine art" that produce a rather exclusionary effect. This tends to turn people off the whole art world, at least if I'm anywhere near representative (and I really don't think I'm unique in being turned off by self-proclaimed elites).

There are some real "elites" that get to have their cake and eat it too. That is, they get to have their own exclusionary language, big incomes, real power, circle-the-wagons mentality, prestige.

I wouldn't especially number artists among them.

Politicians. Sports stars. Doctors. Lawyers. Some law enforcement. Some military. CEOs. and so forth.

Writers for art magazines, and the vast majority of artists are in no way an elite in the real-world sense.

One further point: The perceptions of trained artists are different than untrained, unpracticed people, just as the perceptions and abilities of doctors and other trained types are different than untrained people. So there's a natural gulf.

Some outgoing, generous, confident types can bridge that gulf. They can be the teachers, popularizers, entertainers.

================================
When it comes to jargon, in all cases, some turns out to be necessary--you can't explain basic concepts every time.

My feeling about the jargon of academic music theory changed when I wrote a paper and realized that jargon was unavoidable.

But, granted, post-modern philosophical jargon is different than technical jargon and may serve no purpose other than to mystify.

Problem is, technical jargon and deliberately obscure argot can seem the same.
 
You can zoom in, and on a big screen, it looks good. But I don't know what I'm missing.

In those paintings? Texture. They're entirely white squares painted over other paints. The texture and shape of the paint are entirely important to the overall effect.

Computer screens will never properly convey texture because they're flat.
 
In those paintings? Texture. They're entirely white squares painted over other paints. The texture and shape of the paint are entirely important to the overall effect.

Computer screens will never properly convey texture because they're flat.

White on white.

Wow.

:confused:
 
White on white.

Wow.

:confused:
This is completely ignorant.

Given that I linked to the paintings in question, said ignorance is willful.

Why do you wish to remain ignorant of art? Are you that scared that you might have some preconceptions shattered?
 
This is completely ignorant.

Given that I linked to the paintings in question, said ignorance is willful.

Why do you wish to remain ignorant of art? Are you that scared that you might have some preconceptions shattered?

Ignorant of the deep artistic value of. . .white.
 
This is a common sentiment that I'd like to address.
Of course, artists are people and can be just as rude, arrogant, and pretentious as everyone else, but I think people ascribe these attitudes to artists where they don't really exist.

There's a popular image in film and television of the artist spastically offended when a random guy off the street doesn't immediately see the "genius" of his blank canvas. I've just never seen an attitude like this in real life, but I often see people extrapolate this dubiously from the work.

1) This piece is celebrated by artsy smartsy people and valued in the millions.

2) I don't see what makes it interesting or good.

3) Since they think they're so smart (they must since they're the art establishment)-they must think I'm dumb for not getting it.

But all this is occurring in people's heads, with the artists completely absent from the conversation and pop-cultural artist stereotypes taking their place in the discussion.

Yes, a lot of visual art is not made so that anyone off the street can instantly see the value, this isn't anymore an act of disrespect than a novel published in Russian is an act of disrespect to English speakers.

Or, more directly, a book on advanced quantum physics will be complete gibberish to someone without the background, but for some reason, creating art that is hard to appreciate without a background is seen as condescending, because art is "supposed to be" universal.


This is well argued and I agree with a lot of your points. However, bear in mind that I have been in the past part of the art world. I'm not speaking as a total layperson.

Aside from my father and his artist friends, I was manager of the Fine Arts department at my library for nineteen years and have done extensive reading and museum going.

I most strongly agree with the fact that it's difficult to judge a lot of these pieces without seeing them in person. Texture is an important piece of the art experience, and without it you lose the ability to understand many items. Rodin springs to mind especially. When you see pictures of his art it's very nice and moving. When you see it up close, it's astonishing how the layers of textures turn it into a completely different experience. I once spent two hours walking around a display of the Burghers of Calais, which I had loved on paper, but in real life moved me to tears and amazement.

However, I still maintain that there is a class of artists who do denigrate the layperson and work hard to a sort of reverse snob appeal. And I hold to the Dadaists as my prime example of that.

So put that in your pipe* and smoke it!



*Magritte is one of my favorite artists.
 
ohh what we have on our walls would be a good thread.

I have a lot of tapestries we bought in Belgium. And the rest is pretty much mine. But not my more modern bits. It's "home art"... a painting of my favorite cat, one of the girls and one of me with Kitten. But I suck at realistic art... yeah it looks like them...but other than that....

Well, I just discovered that my ex-wife has a small fortune on "our" walls. (We jointly own the co-op she lives in in Manhattan.)

I wanted to check the value of a water color I got as a Christmas present back in about 1986. I found that it's worth about two thousand bucks, more if the artist passes away. But the rub is that the same person who gave me the water color gave my ex-wife two of his oils.

Luis Feito....
http://chelseaartgalleries.com/auctions/with?sale=S22&lot=169

The two (2!!!) paintings are companion pieces to the one on that link. This is a recent auction, and he's now approaching 80, so being rather well known, people are starting to collect him anticipating his death. Meh, I just loved his work. I'm happy as heck with my little water color, but I'd kinda like to be sitting on a couple a hundred thousand worth of his oils.

ID - you'll probably hate the pic and thus you'd hate the two we have because they're very similar. He worked in start primary colors and black, using the white of the canvas for even more contrast. He added sand to the pigments to build up the texture. (This I only learned by googling him this week.) The effect, live, is quite awesome - they're small paintings.
 
I've seen them, thanks.

Now, how are they art?

I have a couple of pieces that remind me of those. Totally different, and I'm sure totally annoying approach. Artist by the name of Francois Aubrun. Cleaning his brushes on some thick and very absorbant water color mat, he noticed that it had interesting effects on the reverse side. He then proceeded to create a series of paintings by slathering dark blues and greens and blacks onto new water color paper and then turning them over.

Sounds like "found art" or one of your jokes, right? Not to him. Not to me. He went through several hundred of them until he got the technique down, throwing all the earlier ones out, as he hadn't achieved what he'd intended.

The results of the "perfected" technique were quite extraordinary. And very moving.


..... To me.

And that's what counts. If you don't like Rothko or Morris Louis, then you have every right to not like their works. You don't have any right to tell everyone else that what we're appreciating is not art, though. Your like or dislike is not the qualifier.
 
I've seen them, thanks.

Now, how are they art?

Okay, cool. So first off, your description was totally incorrect. Do try to view the subject matter next time (one wonders how you can make judgments on art without even viewing it - almost like you pre-judged it (there's the origins of a certain word hidden in there).

Now that you've seen the pictures, consider what they are. Minimalism is about removing the unnecessary elements. The artist reduced the painting to its most basic element - the materials it was made out of. If you viewed them (instead of seeing a .jpg, which even a prejudiced person might admit was insufficient to judge art) you'd realize that each consisted of the interplay of a base color lines, and different forms of white paint overlaying them. The different forms of paint and different colors used create an interplay between the two layers. Each texture and each color interaction is totally unique, and varies from painting to painting and across the surface of the painting. That interplay is absolute genius. The beauty is the simplicity - parallel lines, overlaid with different types and mixtures of white paint, create an interplay that is absolutely stunning to consider.

As I said, it cannot be conveyed by a jpg, because the form is absolutely integral to the art. The medium was not ' the computer screen.'

If you don't happen to consider that interesting, your loss. I don't particularly like the works of Tolkien, but never would I argue that Tolkien didn't write books, which is the quixotic path you've decided to travel down.
 
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I have a couple of pieces that remind me of those. Totally different, and I'm sure totally annoying approach. Artist by the name of Francois Aubrun. Cleaning his brushes on some thick and very absorbant water color mat, he noticed that it had interesting effects on the reverse side. He then proceeded to create a series of paintings by slathering dark blues and greens and blacks onto new water color paper and then turning them over.

Sounds like "found art" or one of your jokes, right? Not to him. Not to me. He went through several hundred of them until he got the technique down, throwing all the earlier ones out, as he hadn't achieved what he'd intended.

The results of the "perfected" technique were quite extraordinary. And very moving.


..... To me.

And that's what counts. If you don't like Rothko or Morris Louis, then you have every right to not like their works. You don't have any right to tell everyone else that what we're appreciating is not art, though. Your like or dislike is not the qualifier.

OK, is disamburation art, or an art hoax?
 
OK, is disamburation art, or an art hoax?

I could play guru and ask what you think of it.

But I won't.


I think the hoax worked so well because he had some basic skills as a painter, and an eye for structure and composition. I'd seen a couple of those before (the banana one and "Gination"), but have never seen them in color, so my opinion is based solely on the elements I mention.

It's obviously a hoax, but I've seen works by artists that are less balanced and less representational. I don't suppose we want to talk about Grandma Moses and the other naifs. I have a feeling where that might wind up.


ETA: G'night everyone. It's one in the a.m. over here and being a weekend, I do Marcello duty when he wakes for his early a.m. feedings, so I've got to catch some sleep.
 
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