A Thermite/Thermate Question

[Grizzly Bear]

well it turns out 'twoofies' didnt change the colour of the meterite oxidation did,
It does look like rust is forming on the silvery central metal looking material.Can rust form on concrete or can iron form onto concrete unless its molten?

The "meteorite" does not not need to be a solid chunk of steel. Rust tends to stain concrete as it runs off the metallic components, much in the fashion observed here. The hand rails in front of the university bookstore are also bleeding rust onto the concrete, perhaps you'd prefer a picture of that to demonstrate the point I'm making?

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

I keep coming back to this thread but I never have anything to say.

DAMN!

 

[R.Mackey]

The reason for adding Sulphur to thermite is to create a eutetic mixture of molten iron and sulpur this speeds up the Cutting of steel as it reduces the melting temperature required of iron .
When, in the cooling process, the molten mass reaches the eutectic composition, it also reaches the eutectic temperature

That is not the purpose of sulfur in thermite mixtures.

When the thermite is ignited, the thermite itself is considerably hotter than whatever object it is near -- in this case, a very large volume of steel. The sulfur contained in the thermite hits the higher temperature, upon which it oxidizes to SO₂ gas and similar compounds. The amount of sulfur is also extremely small. Even if it wasn't, these dissipate almost instantly, so unless you also have some way to keep the thermite charge under a constant pressurized atmosphere (while the heating is going on...) it will do practically nothing.

Take some basic science classes, and don't parrot others' words so credulously.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

That is not the purpose of sulfur in thermite mixtures.

When the thermite is ignited, the thermite itself is considerably hotter than whatever object it is near -- in this case, a very large volume of steel. The sulfur contained in the thermite hits the higher temperature, upon which it oxidizes to SO₂ gas and similar compounds. The amount of sulfur is also extremely small. Even if it wasn't, these dissipate almost instantly, so unless you also have some way to keep the thermite charge under a constant pressurized atmosphere (while the heating is going on...) it will do practically nothing.

Take some basic science classes, and don't parrot others' words so credulously.

Isn't thermite with sulfer thermate?

 

[PhantomWolf]

That is not the purpose of sulfur in thermite mixtures.

In fact if you read the Anachists handbook, sulphur is specifically added into it to make SO₂ to act as an irritant to firefighters. Had Thermite really been used and had Sulphur as a component, with the amount required, downtown Manhatten would have smelled like Rotorua for a couple of weeks (or Yellowstone for you Yanks that have been there. )

 

[twinstead]

In fact if you read the Anachists handbook, sulphur is specifically added into it to make SO₂ to act as an irritant to firefighters. Had Thermite really been used and had Sulphur as a component, with the amount required, downtown Manhatten would have smelled like Rotorua for a couple of weeks (or Yellowstone for you Yanks that have been there. )

Well, it appears that Rotorua won the "New Zealand's Most Beautiful City Award" in 2002 and 2006. They must not have a most beautiful smell category.

 

[R.Mackey]

Very little in the Anarchist Cookbook works the way they claim it does. Copying from it is the 1980's equivalent of considering Wikipedia to be an infallible resource.

 

[GodisEnergy]

so why does sulpur in eutetic mixtures not oxidize?

 

[R.Mackey]

Because the sulfur that goes into the eutectic starts in a different form. The sulfur in thermate is elemental sulfur. The sulfur that caused the eutectic probably started as an acidic form, such as H₂S or a weak solution of H₂SO₄ (sulfuric acid). Those behave quite differently.

They also wouldn't be as prone to oxidizing and simply dissipating as gas because they weren't heated up to thermite ignition temperatures, but were instead at much cooler temperatures either in or near the fires.

 

[bio]

The "meteorite" does not not need to be a solid chunk of steel. Rust tends to stain concrete as it runs off the metallic components, much in the fashion observed here. The hand rails in front of the university bookstore are also bleeding rust onto the concrete, perhaps you'd prefer a picture of that to demonstrate the point I'm making?

come on! That is ridiculous. You insult my intelligence. Rust need years to form concrete.

 

[bio]

well it turns out 'twoofies' didnt change the colour of the meterite oxidation did,
It does look like rust is forming on the silvery central metal looking material.Can rust form on concrete or can iron form onto concrete unless its molten?

this is the 'liar' you compared to alex jones by the way ,he says its molten steel to.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/molten-steel-found-in-ruins-of-world-trade-center/1524185349

Who is the witness in the video?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

come on! That is ridiculous. You insult my intelligence. Rust need years to form concrete.

I said rust runs off onto concrete, it does not turn into concrete.
Concrete itself doesn't rust to begin with, the steel rebar inside does, if the concrete is breached allowing air and moisture to intrude.
Here's a better illustration of the effect that I'm explaining

Unless you meant to say:

"Rust need years to form [ON] concrete."

in which case it depends entirely on the environmental conditions within the debris pile. The pictures I've posted however demonstrates that the "meteorite" does not need to be composed entirely of steel to show the rust effects as seen in the picture.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

To add to lefty's post:

Meteorite.If you look clearly at the photo you see metal wires and all sorts of stuff sticking out of a central blob of solidified metal.The metal pipes sticking out of the blob werent completely melted as it looks like they stuck in there while cooling down.Burnt paper is expected with hot slag.

The rebar should be a dead give away that the "meteorite" is composed of several sections of concrete floor slabs compressed together during the collapse. If you've studied construction any you would know this immediately:

Example

The steel rebar is added to enhance the tensile strength of concrete, utterly essential for structure floor slabs which must sustain live and dead loads.

It in no way, shape, or form, supports your contention that the meteorite is a solid mass of molten slag.

The reddish colour of the meteroite indicated iron .

Argument from spurious similarity

Given the environment the section was exposed to and that the floor slabs themselves were reinforced with steel rebar effects similar to this would not be unusual.

This is also backed up by the Engineer Baart vorsanger who examined the meteroite and said it had previously molten iron in it!

Do you have a direct quote from him in a repudiated source, a source with the complete statement and context please? The following article designates the meteorite as several compressed floor slabs.

TDJ- jones aimed a laser at the red paint,and it exploded .

Sounds like I'm reading a narrative out of a science fiction novel. Perhaps there's more information that's more comprehensive than a one sentence narrative?

 

[Sunstealer]

The reason for adding Sulphur to thermite is to create a eutetic mixture of molten iron and sulpur this speeds up the Cutting of steel as it reduces the melting temperature required of iron .
When, in the cooling process, the molten mass reaches the eutectic composition, it also reaches the eutectic temperature

ROFLMAO - No, no and thrice no. Sulphidation is a diffusion process. Using thermite would not cause diffusion of Sulphur in steel as per the metallographic samples shown which clearly show sulphidation and grain boundary attack. The only reason to add Sulphur to thermite is to lower the ignition temperature. It's used in small quantities because it's an explosion hazard.

GiE obviously doesn't understand the thermite reaction Fe2O3 + 2Al → 2Fe + Al2O3. This is exothermic and the resultant is liquid Fe from the thermite power. This is what does the damage. Liquids will fall under gravity so liquid Fe could not be used to cut or weaken vertical columns.

 

[Sunstealer]

come on! That is ridiculous. You insult my intelligence. Rust need years to form concrete.

Reading comprehension fail!

Iron rusts easily, moist air is enough to do it, that is why we spend Billions on corrosion protection and the development of corrosion resistant steels and other materials.

Why is the obvious so difficult for truthers to see. It is plainly reinforced concrete (the rebar sticking out of it is the give away) and other debris that has been "squished" together. Why on earth would this not be expected? It's not been molten at all. Look at how sharp the edges of all the rusted steel is!

What is "molten"? What is "liquid"? Many people will use the term molten even when they don't mean liquid.

This argument is down to people not understanding what they are looking at and either pontificating or regurgitating what other ignorant people have spewed.

 

[bio]

Reading comprehension fail!
[qimg]http://texturez.com/files/images/texturez_rust_1162.preview.JPG[/qimg]
[qimg]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/32/94793328_c7730192d4.jpg?v=0[/qimg]
[qimg]http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif[/qimg]

Iron rusts easily, moist air is enough to do it, that is why we spend Billions on corrosion protection and the development of corrosion resistant steels and other materials.

Why is the obvious so difficult for truthers to see. It is plainly reinforced concrete (the rebar sticking out of it is the give away) and other debris that has been "squished" together. Why on earth would this not be expected? It's not been molten at all. Look at how sharp the edges of all the rusted steel is!

What is "molten"? What is "liquid"? Many people will use the term molten even when they don't mean liquid.

This argument is down to people not understanding what they are looking at and either pontificating or regurgitating what other ignorant people have spewed.

time?

 

[Sunstealer]

so why does sulpur in eutetic mixtures not oxidize?

What compound do you think the Sulphur was in when it came into contact with the hot iron/steel? What state (liquid, gas, solid etc) was this compound in? If S diffuses into Fe from SO₂ at temperature then why would it not oxidize?

Come on any chemist will understand exactly why. You've got a degree in Chemistry, an A no less without going to classes, you should either know or be bright enough to work it out.

 

[rwguinn]

just as an FYI, one of the home-improvement shows (I think it was "Deconstructed") looked into welding.
They laid a 2'X8: (approx) plate of 1/4 inch thick steel on a couple of sawhorses. They then poured 4 ounces of thermite (1/4 POUND!) on it, placed a magnesium fuse in it, and then a 1' long 2x2 (approc) angle of 1/4 inch steel atop that.
They lit the fuse.
Fire, sparks, lots of heat.
Final result--1 chunk of steel welded to another. No cutting. All intact, albeit somewhat warped.

4 oz thermite wouldn't CUT 1/4 in steel. How much does it take to cut the stuff inWTC?

 

[Sunstealer]

time?

OK. When was the "meteorite" unearthed? The time between the unearthing and the time of collapse is your time. Was this time hours, days, weeks, months?

Secondly have you ever noticed how a lot of rebar (which is exactly what is shown in the picture) is actually rusty before it's encased in concrete? The rust won't go away if it's been in a building for decades. All that will happen is that the corrosion won't continue (if it's not exposed).

 

[TjW]

One might also bring up the fact that rusting is a chemical reaction. IIRC, the rule of thumb is that the rate of a chemical reaction will approximately double for every 10 degree F increase in temperature.
After cooking for a few weeks in the rubble pile, I'm not at all surprised to see rusty iron.