A Thermite/Thermate Question

[bio]

One might also bring up the fact that rusting is a chemical reaction. IIRC, the rule of thumb is that the rate of a chemical reaction will approximately double for every 10 degree F increase in temperature.
After cooking for a few weeks in the rubble pile, I'm not at all surprised to see rusty iron.

I wonder again and again, how people describe facts as normal, which are abnormal.

 

[R.Mackey]

It isn't.

And thermite burns more quickly and has less energy density than ordinary office materials. Thermite, again, actually produces the opposite effect. You people have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[bio]

It isn't.

And thermite burns more quickly and has less energy density than ordinary office materials. Thermite, again, actually produces the opposite effect. You people have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

We are talking about molten steel according to witness-accounts, and a debris pile, which is cooking around 1500 C hot according to Bechtel! These witnesses knew about what they were talking about.

 

[R.Mackey]

There is no evidence of melted steel, and there are no witnesses that had any way to tell. The majority of witness reports (very few to begin with) were misquoted, as verified by the witnesses themselves. And the temperature of ~ 1500^o C is expected phenomenology.

Besides the witnesses not knowing, it's the false interpretation that we're talking about. Yours. Your claim that "burning for weeks afterward" was abnormal. Thermite needs no oxidizer, and it burns out quickly as a result. As I said, you have no idea what you're talking about. We've gone over this repeatedly here.

 

[bio]

There is no evidence of melted steel, and there are no witnesses that had any way to tell. The majority of witness reports (very few to begin with) were misquoted, as verified by the witnesses themselves. And the temperature of ~ 1500^o C is expected phenomenology.

Besides the witnesses not knowing, it's the false interpretation that we're talking about. Yours. Your claim that "burning for weeks afterward" was abnormal. Thermite needs no oxidizer, and it burns out quickly as a result. As I said, you have no idea what you're talking about. We've gone over this repeatedly here.

there are many, many witness-accounts. Just see the video, which was posted here about the meteorite. Who was the expert, which was talking about it and reported of molten steel?

 

[R.Mackey]

there are many, many witness-accounts. Just see the video, which was posted here about the meteorite. Who was the experts, which were talking about it, and reports of molten steel?

No, there aren't. We've discussed this many, many times. And your "meteorite" is in no way melted iron. Its own contents prove the opposite.

Witness accounts aren't the same as hard evidence. Where is it? Where are these hundreds of tons of formerly molten steel? And don't say it was spirited away -- these same witnesses should have seen it afterwards, too, if it was real.

There is not a single witness who actually measured the temperature, took a sample, or in any way was positioned to identify a molten metal as steel. Zero. Plus, the two most frequently cited, Les Robertson and Mark Lozieaux, were verifiably misquoted, the latter by Truth Movement die-hard, Holocaust-denier, and fugitive from justice Chris Bollyn.

You have nothing. Even if you did, this "evidence" does not support thermite, since the thermite would have burned out and cooled long, long, long before recovery teams approached the area. Not even nuclear bombs create that kind of persistent heat. The only way these two things can be connected is if the thermite somehow survived the fire and collapse, and didn't discharge until weeks afterward!

This has all been gone over literally hundreds of times here. You have done no research at all, apart from buying into a video made by fools.

 

[bio]

No, there aren't. We've discussed this many, many times. And your "meteorite" is in no way melted iron. Its own contents prove the opposite.

Witness accounts aren't evidence.

There is not a single witness who actually measured the temperature, took a sample, or in any way was positioned to identify a molten metal as steel. Zero. Plus, the two most frequently cited, Les Robertson and Mark Lozieaux, were verifiably misquoted, the latter by Truth Movement die-hard, Holocaust-denier, and fugitive from justice Chris Bollyn.

You have nothing. Even if you did, this "evidence" does not support thermite, since the thermite would have burned out and cooled long, long, long before recovery teams approached the area. Not even nuclear bombs create that kind of persistent heat. The only way these two things can be connected is if the thermite somehow survived the fire and collapse, and didn't discharge until weeks afterward!

This has all been gone over literally hundreds of times here. You have done no research at all, apart from buying into a video made by fools.

I am not convinced by your argumentation.

 

[R.Mackey]

Tough. It is you with the exceptional story, not us, and to you falls the burden of proof.

I also am not convinced you can be convinced. So far you display no understanding of thermite at all, leading me to wonder how you came to any conclusion in the first place.

 

[bio]

Tough. It is you with the exceptional story, not us, and to you falls the burden of proof.

I also am not convinced you can be convinced. So far you display no understanding of thermite at all, leading me to wonder how you came to any conclusion in the first place.

You fail to offer a proven explanation for the cooking!
What kind of evidences do you have, that the debris pile was able to develop such extreme temperature almost by itself?

... do not forget: According to Bechtel the debris pile was from the beginning on extremely hot.

 

[R.Mackey]

No, I don't. See the DELTA Group results. The thermal energy contained in ordinary office materials totaled over 20 kilotons TNT equivalent per tower, and it would have burned slowly, limited by availability of oxygen. This is enough to produce both the length and the temperature observed.

Thermite, by contrast, cannot approach this amount of energy, and is about a factor of three lower in energy pound for pound than normal office plastics, paper, and fibers. Thermite doesn't need oxygen and would not burn slowly over weeks, but would burn at once, within seconds to minutes. Thermal diffusion would cool the Pile in hours. We know this because we have set off nuclear bombs underground -- far more extreme than any conceivable thermite scenario, and better insulated -- and they cool to solid within hours.

So, to recap:

1. There were big fires. Ordinary materials. Trash fires, coal mine fires, etc. routinely generate these temperatures and routinely burn for weeks to millennia.

2. There is no evidence of melted steel, or melted iron for that matter.

3. Melted steel long after collapse cannot possibly be caused by thermite, because it would have burned out and cooled well before. Any persistent heating must be due to something else.

That's all there is to it. It is precisely this kind of stunning, comprehensive confusion that certifies the Truth Movement as pseudo-scientific, and this is why it never caught on. No actual expert will believe a word of it.

 

[bio]

No, I don't. See the DELTA Group results. The thermal energy contained in ordinary office materials totaled over 20 kilotons TNT equivalent per tower, and it would have burned slowly, limited by availability of oxygen. This is enough to produce both the length and the temperature observed.

Thermite, by contrast, cannot approach this amount of energy, and is about a factor of three lower in energy pound for pound than normal office plastics, paper, and fibers. Thermite doesn't need oxygen and would not burn slowly over weeks, but would burn at once, within seconds to minutes. Thermal diffusion would cool the Pile in hours. We know this because we have set off nuclear bombs underground -- far more extreme than any conceivable thermite scenario, and better insulated -- and they cool to solid within hours.

So, to recap:

1. There were big fires. Ordinary materials. Trash fires, coal mine fires, etc. routinely generate these temperatures and routinely burn for weeks to millennia.

2. There is no evidence of melted steel, or melted iron for that matter.

3. Melted steel long after collapse cannot possibly be caused by thermite, because it would have burned out and cooled well before. Any persistent heating must be due to something else.

That's all there is to it. It is precisely this kind of stunning, comprehensive confusion that certifies the Truth Movement as pseudo-scientific, and this is why it never caught on. No actual expert will believe a word of it.

... are you saying, that the fires on ground zero burned "slowly, limited by availability of oxygen."

... then how could the (underground) fires heat up the pile so quickly? According to Bechtel the pile was tremendous hot from the beginning on.

Do you still know, what you are writing?

 

[R.Mackey]

... are you saying, that the fires on ground zero burned "slowly, limited by availability of oxygen."

... then how could the (underground) fires heat up the pile so quickly? According to Bechtel the pile was tremendous hot from the beginning on.

Do you still know, what you are writing?

Of course I am, and of course I do. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of tons of combustibles here. That "slow" fire is nonetheless comparable to every barbeque in the United States operating at once.

That pile is also insulated. Same reason oxygen is restricted. High heat availability + low losses due to convection and conduction = high temperatures.

Bechtel can only measure the temperature at the surface. Indeed, USGS demonstrates that the Pile had hot spots, and to think the whole pile reached > 1000^oC is yet another Truther fantasy.

Where have you "researched?" Give me a list, so that I can pinpoint your problem. I'm betting you've read almost nothing of value.

 

[bio]

Of course I am, and of course I do. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of tons of combustibles here. That "slow" fire is nonetheless comparable to every barbeque in the United States operating at once.

That pile is also insulated. Same reason oxygen is restricted. High heat availability + low losses due to convection and conduction = high temperatures.

Bechtel can only measure the temperature at the surface. Indeed, USGS demonstrates that the Pile had hot spots, and to think the whole pile reached > 1000^oC is yet another Truther fantasy.

Where have you "researched?" Give me a list, so that I can pinpoint your problem. I'm betting you've read almost nothing of value.

[/Availability heatI] is not the same with existing heat!

We have, as you said, a fire burning "slowly, limited by availability of oxygen."
This takes many, many weeks to heat up the material - as you can read in wikipedia.

Do you want to "conjure up" the heat magic mackey?

 

[R.Mackey]

[/Availability heatI] is not the same with existing heat!

We have, as you said, a fire burning "slowly, limited by availability of oxygen."
This takes many, many weeks to heat up the material - as you can read in wikipedia.

Do you want to "conjure up" the heat magic mackey?

No, I want you learn something and stop spreading idiotic lies.

Final recap:

You have no evidence of melted steel.

What few accounts you do have are known misquotes or from non-experts with no way to tell.

Even if you had melted steel, it is incompatible with the use of thermite. This would, in actuality, prove that ordinary fires can also melt steel. And that actually weakens the case for thermite.

Either answer my question -- show me where you get your "information" (apparently Wikipedia is chief among your sources...) -- or be ignored.

 

[bio]

No, I want you learn something and stop spreading idiotic lies.

Final recap:

You have no evidence of melted steel.

What few accounts you do have are known misquotes or from non-experts with no way to tell.

Even if you had melted steel, it is incompatible with the use of thermite. This would, in actuality, prove that ordinary fires can also melt steel. And that actually weakens the case for thermite.

Either answer my question -- show me where you get your "information" (apparently Wikipedia is chief among your sources...) -- or be ignored.

Can thermite melt steel? Yes.
Can ordinary office fires or smouldering fires melt steel? No.

Do you really want references for that?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Can thermite melt steel? Yes.
Can ordinary office fires or smouldering fires melt steel? No.

Do you really want references for that?

You obviously fail to read what he was posting. What fascinates me more than your utter ignorance of that however, is that you seem to have no problem with the idea that for your theory to be compatible with the "molten steel" several weeks following the collapse... the thermite would be required to undergo a significantly prolonged reaction (or find a sufficient ignition source long after the fact), and assuming it could survive the collapse in of itself. This is a point Mackey has made in this thread to you here, here, & here... and every time confronted with this problem you shift goalposts yet again. Please tell me more about where I can obtain this invincible super thermite you appear to be implying was in the rubble pile... remember, the one you appear to imply is invincible, and can maintain a reaction for weeks at a time... all that fun stuff


I see you don't really care about the accuracy of what you're claiming...

 

[GodisEnergy]

"Experts dont agree " , funny that the only "experts" i can find that support your claim ,is bazant ,greening and some scientists from nist

Every architect ,engineer ,chemist etc,i have talked to , has never heard of WTC7 or has never heard of the evidence for thermite.Or seen pictures of molten steel.

Molten steel - Theres video of molten steel flowing from south tower.

-Theres many experts witnessing molten steel flowing,
-Asl astranah and Baart voorsanger both saw molten steel at freshkills.

- many tonnes of molten steel were 'spirited away' as iron microspheres.
-the rest was sent to freshkills for recycling
-some peices were saved like the meteorite and following examples,one
sent to s.jones for anaylsis which found previously molten iron

-fema said there was intergranular 'melting of steel'

- RJ lee found molten molybdenum ,vapourised lead,which temperature far exceed melting of steel.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

"Experts dont agree " , funny that the only "experts" i can find that support your claim ,is bazant ,greening and some scientists from nist

Poisoning the well

Every architect ,engineer ,chemist etc,i have talked to , has never heard of WTC7 or has never heard of the evidence for thermite.Or seen pictures of molten steel.

Along with an appeal to anonymous authority

A nice roundabout route to special pleading aye?

Molten steel - Theres video of molten steel flowing from south tower.
[qimg]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/subedei11/moltenstreamthermate.jpg[/qimg]

Coming from a grainy, distorted video? A stream from which no known samples have been taken? Lets play devil's advocate and pretend this is indeed due to a thermite reaction. How does the thermite remain functional after the plane impacts? If it remains functional, then why does it take nearly an hour to ignite when any hypothetical trigger has been destroyed?
Finally, given the light show, why don't we see more of this in either tower?

-Theres many experts witnessing molten steel flowing

appeal to anonymous authority

-Asl astranah and Baart voorsanger both saw molten steel at freshkills.

Context? Have they commented further regarding the matter?

-the rest was sent to freshkills for recycling

Where all of it was sorted through. How do you thionk all of the representative samples were found?

-some peices were saved like the meteorite and following

Well that first one was a massive chunk of concrete with steel rebar protruding from it, something like this (link)

and here's a close up

examples,one
sent to s.jones for anaylsis which found previously molten iron
[qimg]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/subedei11/Slide146_PNG.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/subedei11/molten002sm.jpg[/qimg]

Is there an expanded version of the bottom image for context?

- RJ lee found molten molybdenum ,vapourised lead,which temperature far exceed melting of steel.

And have they verified that this was created at the time of the collapse, not from the building's time of construction or external sources?

 

[Sunstealer]

sent to s.jones for anaylsis which found previously molten iron
[qimg]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/subedei11/Slide146_PNG.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/subedei11/molten002sm.jpg[/qimg]

-fema said there was intergranular 'melting of steel'

- RJ lee found molten molybdenum ,vapourised lead,which temperature far exceed melting of steel.

AAAAAARRRRRRGH!!!! NO, NO, NO NO, NO, NO, NO. When will you get it into your thick skull? I have already been through it with you explaining liquation and why it happens and on what scale this occurs. You are proposing a huge stream of molten steel then equating it with grain boundary melting due to sulphidation! That is utterly laughable. Please desist. Go back and look at the photomicrographs and understand what SCALE they are on. Grrrrrrr!

Again you keep posting that stupid photograph that does NOT show steel that has previously been molten. It has sharp edges for crying out loud! Why oh why do you continue to spout this rubbish? Look up hot forging and for that matter cold forging* too - yes I'm setting you more homework, because you obviously didn't do the last lot I set you otherwise you would understand.

Steel is malleable at room temperature. It is ductile. Heat it up and that ductility and hence malleability increases so it's absolutely no surprise that a piece of steel will be shaped under pressure whilst hot (>Tm_0.5). You can see where this has occurred in that photo.

What the hell is the last photo? Where's it from? What scale is it? What component? Just blindly posting photos without information is unhelpful.

*cold forging is not cold - typically hot forging is forging at greater than 1/2 the melting point (>Tm_0.5) of a metal and cold forging occurs below 1/2 melting point. (<Tm_0.5).

 

[Sunstealer]

Right Thermite . This is what is needed to start with.

Firstly,

Calculate exactly which parts of the structure were required to be cut in order to collapse the building.

Calculate the total amount of thermite/thermate/marmite required to cut those sections.

Calculate the total amount of liquid iron (Fe) produced from powder (due to by the thermite reaction Fe2O3 + 2Al → 2Fe + Al2O3) assuming a certain thermite composition.

Calculate how much steel would have been melted due the actions of this liquid iron. (2400°C or there abouts).

Calculate the total mass and volume of liquid material. (Iron and steel)


This should be very, very, easy and straight forward to do. Show your working at each stage. If the "truth movement" can atleast come up with some figures then it's worth the exercise.