The History Channel and "Ancient Technologies"

[ponderingturtle]

JREF is a nice place to celebrate the closed mind

atleast some seem to be a little more openminded.

Yes i also think Traditional Chinese Medicine contains alot woo.
But Chi seem to be not one of them.

or do you claim that the Shaolin Monks for example are scammers ,use tricks like Copperfield`?

No not like Copperfield, much like traditional carnies. The human body can to remarkable things, especialy with a bit of training, and there are many effects that are counter intuitive.

What is your claim of a well documented thing that the Shaolin Monks could do that is not explainable with ordinary biophysics?

And how much is just like the worlds greatest martial art, Yellow Bamboo?

Where are the studies that show that Accupuncture is crap? Studies from 2006 showed it is not pure nonsence, it is also not only the placebo effect etc.

And Accupuncture has low quality studies being done after high quality studies have shown that it is no more effective than placebo for exactly the same thing. This just permits people to say that studies have shown that it works, regardless of the fact that previous higher quality studies had already shown that it does not work.

 

[Travis]

What's worse: being closed minded to things with no evidence or open minded to any dumb idea that comes along? Given that choice I'd rather be closed minded.

 

[DC]

the worst is the no sayers.
alsong you have no evidence, sure, dont belive it, be agnostic about it.
when you have evidence it is not working, then you can say no and call it woo. When you have evidence that it is working, then you can belive it.



German Acupuncture Trials (GERAC) for Chronic Low Back Pain

Randomized, Multicenter, Blinded, Parallel-Group Trial With 3 Groups

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892

Conclusions Low back pain improved after acupuncture treatment for at least 6 months. Effectiveness of acupuncture, either verum or sham, was almost twice that of conventional therapy.


But hey, our conventional therapy is not woo, that chineses needle stuff is woo, isnt it?

 

[DC]

No not like Copperfield, much like traditional carnies. The human body can to remarkable things, especialy with a bit of training, and there are many effects that are counter intuitive.

What is your claim of a well documented thing that the Shaolin Monks could do that is not explainable with ordinary biophysics?

And how much is just like the worlds greatest martial art, Yellow Bamboo?



And Accupuncture has low quality studies being done after high quality studies have shown that it is no more effective than placebo for exactly the same thing. This just permits people to say that studies have shown that it works, regardless of the fact that previous higher quality studies had already shown that it does not work.

Do you have links to the highquality studies?

 

[Dancing David]

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/co...es&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/news/20070924/study-acupuncture-eases-low-back-pain


Now please note something imporatant mentioned in the second source:

The acupuncture groups were allowed to use medication for acute episodes of back pain only. This consisted of NSAID use no more than two days a week during the treatment period.

 

[Dancing David]

the worst is the no sayers.
alsong you have no evidence, sure, dont belive it, be agnostic about it.
when you have evidence it is not working, then you can say no and call it woo. When you have evidence that it is working, then you can belive it.



German Acupuncture Trials (GERAC) for Chronic Low Back Pain

Randomized, Multicenter, Blinded, Parallel-Group Trial With 3 Groups

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892

Conclusions Low back pain improved after acupuncture treatment for at least 6 months. Effectiveness of acupuncture, either verum or sham, was almost twice that of conventional therapy.


But hey, our conventional therapy is not woo, that chineses needle stuff is woo, isnt it?

In one study, right? Where the treatment with medication was limnited to two days a week, right?

Please get off your horse, you have found a study, that is great, but please do not act like it shows what you think it does. One must always show caution in looking at a single study.

It also showed that sham acupuncture had the same effect.

This is also interesting:

Patients who were unblinded or had recourse to other than permitted concomitant therapies during follow-up were classified as nonresponders regardless of symptom improvement.

I could be wrong but i would think that these should have been removed from the data.

 

[DC]

In one study, right? Where the treatment with medication was limnited to two days a week, right?

Please get off your horse, you have found a study, that is great, but please do not act like it shows what you think it does. One must always show caution in looking at a single study.

It also showed that sham acupuncture had the same effect.

This is also interesting:


I could be wrong but i would think that these should have been removed from the data.

Yes the Sham acupuncture had almost the same effect. which is double than the common therapy had.

yes one should look at alot more than one study, thats why i asked for those highquality studies that showed it does not work.

But it would never come to my mind to wanna cure cancer with acupuncture.
Acupuncture should be used where it showed to work, and not try to cure everything with it.

also should diffrent studies of the same problems be compared. and not backpain acupuncture with brest cancer acupuncture.

there are also studies about headache that are interesting, they dont work as well as the backpain acupuncture but when i remember correctly also there our common medicamentations was beaten by the acupuncture.

When acupuncture is such a woo like it is claimed here, why do swiss doctors (normal doctors, not alternatives) send people to acupuncture, or why do they try if homeopathy works on that patient? and the health insurance pays for it, and they like to not pay, but they pay acupuncture when your doctor says you need it. They dont pay spiritual helers for example.

When i have to take pharmaceuticals often, my doctor is trying to find a working alternative. that is not chemical and has less adverse effects.
when he finds something, we try it, when it works, that is fine, if not, we keep searching.

But i guess my Doctor is now counted a woodoctor here


And when it is just the placebo effect, what is wrong with that? aslong that placebo effect is working better than the common medicamentation or therapy, aslong it helps.....

 

[DC]

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/co...es&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/news/20070924/study-acupuncture-eases-low-back-pain


Now please note something imporatant mentioned in the second source:

Acupuncture is still considered an alternative treatment for low back pain in the U.S., but this is no longer the case in Germany. Based on findings from the newly reported study, it is now covered by state health insurance.

and when a combination of a common therapy together with an alternative is working alot better than only the common therapy, what is wrong with that?

So in Germany and Switzerland for example , acupuncture is covered by the health insurance, are they supporting woo? Why dont they use those high quality studies that show that it is not working to avoid pay for woo?

 

[fuelair]

Are you saying my powdered tiger's wang is not going to increase my virility immeasurably?

Did it help the tiger?

 

[Bikewer]

Seems to me that there have been a few studies that show some pain reduction effects from acupuncture, but also that the same effects can be had from (as stated above) "sham" acupuncture, where needles are inserted at random.
Here we may have two things going on, the Placebo effect coupled with the body's reaction to being stuck with needles.
It would not surprise me to learn that the brain was simply reacting to this intrusion by releasing endorphins into the system.

As well, note that none of the "structures" associated with acupuncture have ever been observed. No "meridians", no "nodes", nothing of the sort. "Chi" itself has never been observed. Even with all of our marvelous modern imaging technology, not even with our ability to sense brain-wave activity on the surface of the skin.
Here is a "force" so powerful it can cause or prevent injury, yet it's entirely unobserved.

As for the much-vaunted Shaolin monks....I have not been impressed with the stuff I've seen.
Standard martial-arts sideshow tricks for the most part. The "style" itself seems to have devolved into a combination of movie-fu and acrobatics.

 

[Correa Neto]

"Chi" was never observed because our technology can not yet image midchlorians...

Bikewer was faster than I. Even if acupunture is above placebo effect this is not evidence that "meridians", "nodes", etc. are not crap.

 

[DC]

Seems to me that there have been a few studies that show some pain reduction effects from acupuncture, but also that the same effects can be had from (as stated above) "sham" acupuncture, where needles are inserted at random.
Here we may have two things going on, the Placebo effect coupled with the body's reaction to being stuck with needles.
It would not surprise me to learn that the brain was simply reacting to this intrusion by releasing endorphins into the system.

As well, note that none of the "structures" associated with acupuncture have ever been observed. No "meridians", no "nodes", nothing of the sort. "Chi" itself has never been observed. Even with all of our marvelous modern imaging technology, not even with our ability to sense brain-wave activity on the surface of the skin.
Here is a "force" so powerful it can cause or prevent injury, yet it's entirely unobserved.

As for the much-vaunted Shaolin monks....I have not been impressed with the stuff I've seen.
Standard martial-arts sideshow tricks for the most part. The "style" itself seems to have devolved into a combination of movie-fu and acrobatics.

good post. indeed "Chi" was never observed afaik.

do we have a soul, was the soul ever observed?

And indeed studies seem to show that the placebo effect is an important part of it (i think the same about Homeopathy). But aslong it beats our common therapy, why not?

Another point is, i have read that some of those meridians are directly contradicting our modern medical / anatomic knowledge.

And yes also the shaolin monks are not supernaturals, just humans that spend most of their time, and that is a huge lot of time, into their training.
they train the controll of their Chi, or that is what they belive they do.
If that is correct or if other elemts play a role in that, i dont know, but what they do is amazing, and is beating all the other martial art shows i ever saw.

the chi controll and the buildup of the human body (according to TCM) with those meridians and nodes etc is very old, and based on that knowledge or woo if you want, there are some amazing things to be observed, like some studies about acupuncture showed, or some shaolin monks that can controll their heartbeat and body temperature. I think there is to much about it to just call it woo. i think it is a very interesting topic that deserves more studies and more investigation. But to just call knowledge that was gathered for thousands of years, woo, is to easy. I think it is not only woo.

BTW, a few months ago i saw a reportage about placeboeffects in brainsurgery,half of the patients did get a sham brainsurgery, still half of them felt a huge improvement. a clear placeboeffect. does that mean, brainsurgery is woo ?

 

[DC]

more about brainsurgery woo

http://www.webmd.com/parkinsons-disease/news/20040414/strong-placebo-strong-parkinsons-effect

"Those who thought they received the transplant at 12 months reported better quality of life than those who thought they received the sham surgery, regardless of which surgery they actually received," researcher Cynthia McRae, PhD, of the University of Denver, says in a news release.

i find the placebo effect very interesting. For me it shows how much our own "belive" (positive or negative thinking) is influencing the healing. ETA: maybe not the healing itself, but the way we live with the disease.

Some of the placebo patients, however, made striking improvements. One patient said she had not been physically active for several years before surgery. After surgery, she was able to hike and ice skate. She eventually learned she'd had sham surgery.

 

[Dancing David]

and when a combination of a common therapy together with an alternative is working alot better than only the common therapy, what is wrong with that?

So in Germany and Switzerland for example , acupuncture is covered by the health insurance, are they supporting woo? Why dont they use those high quality studies that show that it is not working to avoid pay for woo?

Did you read what the protocol was for medication? At least as reported in teh second link, HMMMM?

Let me know if that is the way NSAIDs for back pain are recommended to be perscribed, will you?

 

[DC]

Did you read what the protocol was for medication? At least as reported in teh second link, HMMMM?

Let me know if that is the way NSAIDs for back pain are recommended to be perscribed, will you?

i think i dont understand your question.

Patients who received conventional treatments had a similar number of total treatments, which included exercise, pain medication, and nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs).

Did you mean that?

Also interesting

Endres says acupuncture is a clearly useful treatment for low back pain, even if we don't understand why.

"Just because we cannot explain exactly the mechanism by which a treatment works, doesn't mean that it doesn't work," he says.

 

[Dancing David]

There are a number of caveats here:

1. This is a single (yet randomised), therefore all data is tentative until replicated.

2. The use of NSAIDs prescribed only twice a wekk is not the usual 'traditional' course of treatment.

3. There was not a no treatment group.

4. There is no follow up to find the effect two months, six months and a year later.

5. There is no baseline data on the level of pain and the change in levels of pain by the experimental groups.

So yes this study demonstrated that there was an effect compared to the twive weekly use of NSAIDs, that does not mean that it is more effective that the daily use of NSAIDs, now does it?

 

[TheSkepticCanuck]

When acupuncture is such a woo like it is claimed here, why do swiss doctors (normal doctors, not alternatives) send people to acupuncture, or why do they try if homeopathy works on that patient? and the health insurance pays for it, and they like to not pay, but they pay acupuncture when your doctor says you need it. They dont pay spiritual helers for example.

Actually, this is not a very strong argument. My insurance company will pay for many homeopathic treatments, including NAET (Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination Technique), which surprised the heck out of me, let me tell you. I thought the same thing, that an insurance company wouldn't cover such things, but after I discovered that mine does, I no longer believe that. Therefore, the argument that it must be valid if the insurance companies will cover it is not a valid one. Unless, of course, someone wants to try to convince me that NAET is a valid treatment / cure for allergies.

The Skeptic Canuck

 

[Morrigan]

I have no problem with "chi" as a purely metaphorical way to describe shockwaves or breathing or whatever physical effect is meant according to context. But "chi" as something metaphysical or mystical is indeed total crap.

 

[DC]

There are a number of caveats here:

1. This is a single (yet randomised), therefore all data is tentative until replicated.

2. The use of NSAIDs prescribed only twice a wekk is not the usual 'traditional' course of treatment.

3. There was not a no treatment group.

4. There is no follow up to find the effect two months, six months and a year later.

5. There is no baseline data on the level of pain and the change in levels of pain by the experimental groups.

So yes this study demonstrated that there was an effect compared to the twive weekly use of NSAIDs, that does not mean that it is more effective that the daily use of NSAIDs, now does it?

And your high quality studies had all those requerements?

 

[DC]

Actually, this is not a very strong argument. My insurance company will pay for many homeopathic treatments, including NAET (Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination Technique), which surprised the heck out of me, let me tell you. I thought the same thing, that an insurance company wouldn't cover such things, but after I discovered that mine does, I no longer believe that. Therefore, the argument that it must be valid if the insurance companies will cover it is not a valid one. Unless, of course, someone wants to try to convince me that NAET is a valid treatment / cure for allergies.

The Skeptic Canuck

It is a pretty good indication. And um not sure about NAET, but my sister has alot of allergys, she would have to take alot chemical medicaments if her doctor didnt try a homeopathic solution, and guess what, for here it works, it is cheaper and better for her health. Another friend of mine has the same problem, on him the homeopathic solution did not work, so he is still taking the chemical stuff.
btw, my sister her self belives that the "water" is just triggering a placebo effect somehow. But she does not mind, aslong it works.