AA77 FDR Data, Explained

[Turbofan]

Thanks for the bump, I have been meaning to share some stellar new info
since researching all of the speculation from certain FDR pros here.

Have the pretend FDR experts at PffffT had their findings corroborated by real FDR experts yet?

I just thought I'd let your pretend FDR wannabe's read this and learn. You
can get some great information by picking up the phone and talking to the
right people



- There is no connection to the erase enable when the
CPM resides in the flight data recorder. In order to
access this function, the module must be physically
removed from the container and placed in a test jig.

A jumper must be physically moved to enable the
erase line, followed by a DC voltage application
and a step through menu using software.

- RE: transients and bit flipping. If the bits were flipped,
they would stll reside in memory.

The last sync word and frame are intact, however
the raw file shows no additional bits after the last
sync word therefore a change of state did not occur.

Guess what that means? All of your THEORIES have been busted. I figured
some of your pretend FDR handlers around here would know this stuff.

 

[TjW]

Thanks for the bump, I have been meaning to share some stellar new info
since researching all of the speculation from certain FDR pros here.



I just thought I'd let your pretend FDR wannabe's read this and learn. You
can get some great information by picking up the phone and talking to the
right people



- There is no connection to the erase enable when the
CPM resides in the flight data recorder. In order to
access this function, the module must be physically
removed from the container and placed in a test jig.

A jumper must be physically moved to enable the
erase line, followed by a DC voltage application
and a step through menu using software.

- RE: transients and bit flipping. If the bits were flipped,
they would stll reside in memory.

The last sync word and frame are intact, however
the raw file shows no additional bits after the last
sync word therefore a change of state did not occur.

Guess what that means? All of your THEORIES have been busted. I figured
some of your pretend FDR handlers around here would know this stuff.

I'm not an FDR handler of any stripe, but the phrase "If the bits were flipped, they would still reside in memory" is five laughing-dogs funny.
ETA: Not to imply that they wouldn't be in the memory. Where else could they be?

However, the way they're presented here, I don't get the impression these are your words.
If you had any idea what you were talking about, you would have trimmed out the stupid.

 

[Turbofan]

I'm not an FDR handler of any stripe, but the phrase "If the bits were flipped, they would still reside in memory" is five laughing-dogs funny.
ETA: Not to imply that they wouldn't be in the memory. Where else could they be?

Why is this so funny? The last frame is complete, there is nothing after it.

Where are the "flipped bits"? If they were in memory, then the file size would
increase according, and the raw data would show bits beyond the last
frame.

IE: x frames of data * # of bits = file size

'There is nothing in the raw file to support such a theory of 'transient flipping'.

Is this really that funny, or do you not have a clue?

 

[WildCat]

So I take it the answer is "No, Pffft has not found any actual FDR experts who agree with their findings"?

 

[jaydeehess]

Thanks for the bump, I have been meaning to share some stellar new info
since researching all of the speculation from certain FDR pros here.



I just thought I'd let your pretend FDR wannabe's read this and learn. You
can get some great information by picking up the phone and talking to the
right people



- There is no connection to the erase enable when the
CPM resides in the flight data recorder. In order to
access this function, the module must be physically
removed from the container and placed in a test jig.

A jumper must be physically moved to enable the
erase line, followed by a DC voltage application
and a step through menu using software.

- RE: transients and bit flipping. If the bits were flipped,
they would stll reside in memory.

The last sync word and frame are intact, however
the raw file shows no additional bits after the last
sync word therefore a change of state did not occur.

Guess what that means? All of your THEORIES have been busted. I figured
some of your pretend FDR handlers around here would know this stuff.

Must have been a brand new DFDR then.

No data after the last frame but there is supposedly no way to erase blocks.

I can see a case for the data over-writing old data and thus no access, from outside of the FDR, to the erase function. However if there is no way at all to erase blocks while the chip remains in the DFDR then old data MUST still reside in memory. If there is no data then the only way to have this occur is if it only has the factory installed bits (typically all zeros or all ones).

If bits were flipped then yes, those bits would be in memory with an erroneous state. What state would "no data" represent TF, some sort of third choice here?

 

[ktesibios]

Umm... generally speaking erasing a block in flash memory sets all bits to "1". Write operations can set bits to "0", but cannot set them back to "1". If a data-logging device were to "write over" locations that had previously been written, all that would happen would be that "0"s would accumulate, e.g., if a location already held the value 11001011 and you tried to write the value 00111101 to it you would wind up with 00001001, which is neither the original value nor the new value. The end result would be a whole lot of gibberish.

Consequently a logging device which uses flash memory in a manner analogous to endless-loop tape would have to erase blocks to prepare them before writing new data to those locations. Not to do this would be like taking a tape-based recorder and removing the erase head- as soon as the tape cycled back around to previously written portions both the old and new data would be rendered unusable.

Arguing about technical minutiae here is every bit as senseless as arguing the fine points of video cameras, transmission systems, recording systems and EFX with Ace Baker. Just as in that case, the 800-pound gorilla in the room is the totality of the evidence which taken together converges on the conclusion that no-planers are ***** nuts.

 

[R.Mackey]

Correct. The FDR does erase its own storage, overwriting as it operates. Turbofan's alleged "new information" is nonsense.

I did ask before whether there were damaged frames or extra sync words written after the :xx:45 end of validated data, because this can give us a clue as to what happened next. beachnut answered in the affirmative, but it is very, very hard for us to be sure, since we do not have the actual low-level FDR data, and if corrupted it may be impossible to determine this for certain.

The "raw" file may not contain this information. Once again, the FDR does not have a file system. The "raw" file is a binary, but may be restricted to complete frames. There is no reason to expect this file to contain fragmentary data or garbage after the last good read value.

Turbofan, in the past virtually all of your assertions have turned out to be nonsense. Why should we believe you this time? In other words, present your evidence, or else we will simply ignore your latest, unsupported, borderline unintelligible set of claims.

 

[JimBenArm]

So, Turbo is back after an extended absence. My take on this is that he went into hiding to sulk after the spanking he got here last time, and thought he was gone long enough for everyone to forget how pitiful he looked then.
Sorry, it's still one of my favorite pieces of performance art, dude. I've never seen anyone get their ass handed to them like you did, and yet here you are again to try to get some more. Talk about a man not knowing his limitations!
Well, this'll be a lot of laughs. Carry on. Please, please do!

 

[beachnut]

...

The last sync word and frame are intact, however
the raw file shows no additional bits after the last
sync word therefore a change of state did not occur.

Show the last sync word; show the data. Can you show the data?

You always talk and fail to present the evidence, sources, or supporting data. Like you controlled airspace junk idea rant.

What is the time of the last sync word? What is the time of the last frame?
Show your work; please. The experts decoders at p4t have all 25 hours of flights on 77; this means the airframe, passengers, and FDR found in the Pentagon were all 77. This means your ideas are proven false. So fire you next round of junk ideas on the FDR; next time please reference the source of your latest affliction.

 

[Reality Believer]

So, Turbo is back after an extended absence. My take on this is that he went into hiding to sulk after the spanking he got here last time, and thought he was gone long enough for everyone to forget how pitiful he looked then.
Sorry, it's still one of my favorite pieces of performance art, dude. I've never seen anyone get their ass handed to them like you did, and yet here you are again to try to get some more. Talk about a man not knowing his limitations!
Well, this'll be a lot of laughs. Carry on. Please, please do!

You mean this spanking?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124431

Too bad that the thread was closed for bickering. Gravy was right. The continued engagement of these people is not productive, otherwise the excellent thread above would not be locked and we could bump it today.

 

[jaydeehess]

Umm... generally speaking erasing a block in flash memory sets all bits to "1". Write operations can set bits to "0", but cannot set them back to "1". If a data-logging device were to "write over" locations that had previously been written, all that would happen would be that "0"s would accumulate, e.g., if a location already held the value 11001011 and you tried to write the value 00111101 to it you would wind up with 00001001, which is neither the original value nor the new value. The end result would be a whole lot of gibberish.

.

Now that you mention it , didn't Macgyvers2000 say exactly this?

So it is obvious that it is nonsense to suggest that there is no erasure of old data as the FDR prepares to write new data to a block.

 

[bio]

How can you be so sure, that the Data really comes from Flight 77?

The following is a statement by the Section Chief of the Record/lnformation Dissemination Section ("RlDS") of the FBI regarding the unsuccessful search for records or facsimiles of records, pertaining the 4 aircraft identified by the FBI and NTSB as being used during terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 or wreckage generated by them, including 2 flight data recorders.

Plaintiff's original FOIA request sought "documentation pertaining to any formally and positively identified debris" from the aircraft used in the September 11th attacks.
(...)
In response to this request, RlDS conducted a search for potentially responsive records at FBIHQ on February 11, 2008. A search of the CRS was conducted using the following subjects: "Airline Debris," "Debris Identification," "Commercial Aircraft," "Aircraft Identification," "Aircraft Debris," "Aircraft Wreckage," "Aircraft," "Recovered Debris," "National Transportation and Safety Bureau," "National Transportation Safety Board," "NTSB," "American Airlines," "American Airlines Flight," "American Airlines Flight Eleven," "American Airlines Flight Number 11," "American Airlines Flight 77," "N334AA," "N612UA," "N644AA," "N591UA," "Flight 175," "Flight 11," "Flight 77," "Flight 93," "Identifying Aircraft Parts," "Factual Report Aviation," "Federal Aviation Administration," "Pentbomb," "Ground Zero," "Freshkills Landfill," and "Fresh Kills Landfill."

Despite this extensive and detailed search effort, RlDS has been unable to locate any FBI records responsive to plaintiffs request.

Please excuse, if you answered that already. I did not read the entire thread.

Did they identify the flight-recorder?

 

[Magenta]

How can you be so sure, that the Data really comes from Flight 77?

The following is a statement by the Section Chief of the Record/lnformation Dissemination Section ("RlDS") of the FBI regarding the unsuccessful search for records or facsimiles of records, pertaining the 4 aircraft identified by the FBI and NTSB as being used during terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 or wreckage generated by them, including 2 flight data recorders. [...]

That FOIA request was previously discussed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121936

 

[bio]

That FOIA request was previously discussed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121936

yes - I read the first 5 pages, and it corroborates me in my question to you. Did the FBI confirm, that they were able identify debris as from Flight AA77?

 

[Magenta]

yes - I read the first 5 pages, and it corroborates me in my question to you. Did the FBI confirm, that they were able identify debris as from Flight AA77?

As the identity of the aircraft was never question, any aircraft debris found at the Pentagon belonged to AA77. Really, this issue has been gone over countless times before on this forum.

 

[Caustic Logic]

As the identity of the aircraft was never question, any aircraft debris found at the Pentagon belonged to AA77. Really, this issue has been gone over countless times before on this forum.

Word. All this crud about somebody at some point was unable to produce some specific thing for some JAQ-off on their timetable gets real old. No one will tell you what they think the parts are from if not 77. Except the ones that do, and that's always funny. Fiber-composite Global Hawk, coated in AA painted aluminum and, uh, equipped with 757 landing gear. Oh, and it shot a missile that knocked down the light pole with wind.

 

[bio]

As the identity of the aircraft was never question, any aircraft debris found at the Pentagon belonged to AA77. Really, this issue has been gone over countless times before on this forum.

That is no evidence! Bring the material evidence, that the data is really from the flight AA77. That should be the basic of this thread.

JREF: "a place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking"
Where can I find that here?

 

[Caustic Logic]

That is no evidence! Bring the evidence, that the data is really from the flight AA77. That should be the basic of this thread.

It's said by reliable people to have been found inside the Pentagon. All the data on it for flight path matches the radar track of the same plane thought to be Flight 77. They both stopped tracking it for their own reasons at about the time witnesses started noticing an AA 757 that then seemed to dive into the Pentagon. It knocked down light poles and exploded into the building's ground floor, say many dozens of close-u eyewitnesses and the physical evidence. DNA of Flight 77 passengers was found inside around the black boxes and the rest of the 757.

Call it what you will, for all intents and purposes it was Flight 77 to me. The FDR data supports this - even PfffT can't fudge it to more than a bit too high, or whatever, to be one and the same as well, despite their best efforts. By not being able to make it very different for time and space and what 77 had to do and did, even PfffT confirm it to be genuine.

But bio has some doubts. Still?

 

[bio]

It's said by reliable people to have been found inside the Pentagon. All the data on it for flight path matches the radar track of the same plane thought to be Flight 77. They both stopped tracking it for their own reasons at about the time witnesses started noticing an AA 757 that then seemed to dive into the Pentagon. It knocked down light poles and exploded into the building's ground floor, say many dozens of close-u eyewitnesses and the physical evidence. DNA of Flight 77 passengers was found inside around the black boxes and the rest of the 757.

Call it what you will, for all intents and purposes it was Flight 77 to me. The FDR data supports this - even PfffT can't fudge it to more than a bit too high, or whatever, to be one and the same as well, despite their best efforts. By not being able to make it very different for time and space and what 77 had to do and did, even PfffT confirm it to be genuine.

But bio has some doubts. Still?

clearly - a plane hit the pentagon. A recorder, debris and remains were found. A radar track - yes. But this do not address my question.

 

[Caustic Logic]

clearly - a plane hit the pentagon. A recorder, debris and remains were found. A radar track - yes. But this do not address my question.

Oh, ok. Well at least you can acknowledge some of the obvious.

On the rest, good luck with that.