VP Debate Thread

[Wangler]

I was looking through both the transcript, and the fact-check websites, and I am amazed at how wrong Biden was on the whole Hamas-Lebanon issue.

Not even close. Sheesh!

 

[Gurdur]

I was looking through both the transcript, and the fact-check websites, and I am amazed at how wrong Biden was on the whole Hamas-Lebanon issue. Not even close. Sheesh!

Wrong in what way? Factually wrong, or simply of a different opinion? Detail.

 

[corplinx]

Wrong in what way? Factually wrong, or simply of a different opinion? Detail.

As in complete fantasy but delivered with a voice and style that feigned commanding knowledge. He's getting dinged on it now by the right wing blogos who seek to minimize Palin's mistakes.

 

[Gurdur]

As in complete fantasy but delivered with a voice and style that feigned commanding knowledge. He's getting dinged on it now by the right wing blogos who seek to minimize Palin's mistakes.

Detail, please.

 

[Wangler]

Wrong in what way? Factually wrong, or simply of a different opinion? Detail.

As in there is no record of Obama speaking out about the Hamas policy in 2005, and he had only been in office like three days at that time.

Didn't happen. At least he didn't say Obama suggested FDR get on the TV in 1929 or whatever.

 

[Wangler]

Detail, please.

Shouldn't speak for Corplinx, but here goes:

I think that he is referring to all of the discussions in both right and left wing blogospheres about the factual inaccuracies in both VP candidate's debate responses.

 

[SezMe]

In the debate, after Palin responded (accurately) to a question about the role of the VP, Biden patronizingly declared...

Very, very interesting, BAC. You say that Palin responded "accurately" but did NOT quote her response but did quote Biden. So for accuracy's sake, let's look at exactly what Palin said:

PALIN: Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president. And we will do what is best for the American people in tapping into that position and ushering in an agenda that is supportive and cooperative with the president's agenda in that position. Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there, and we'll do what we have to do to administer very appropriately the plans that are needed for this nation. And it is my executive experience that is partly to be attributed to my pick as V.P. with McCain, not only as a governor, but earlier on as a mayor, as an oil and gas regulator, as a business owner. It is those years of experience on an executive level that will be put to good use in the White House also.

That's not "accurate"; it's not even responsive to the question. It's word salad.

Oh, and

 

[Gurdur]

As in there is no record of Obama speaking out about the Hamas policy in 2005, and he had only been in office like three days at that time.

So I assume that the claim is:

a) Biden claimed that Obama spoke publically in 2005 about the then-ruling policy towards Hamas,
and
b) there is no record of Obama doing so
?

That it?

That all? I was thinking you were saying Biden was factually wrong about Hamas itself. Really, this doesn't seem like such a big thing at all to me so far, but then, what would I know?

 

[Wangler]

So I assume that the claim is:

a) Biden claimed that Obama spoke publically in 2005 about the then-ruling policy towards Hamas,
and
b) there is no record of Obama doing so
?

That it?

Really, this doesn't seem like such a big thing at all to me so far, but then, what would I know?

No, I wasn't saying that he was wrong about Hama's only about Obama's verbal injecture or actual involvement in the policy debate.


I knew you would give Biden a pass, but you guys all do.



After all, they are only misrepresentations of facts, so who cares, right?

 

[Gurdur]

No, I wasn't saying that he was wrong about Hama's only about Obama's verbal injecture or actual involvement in the policy debate.

Fine.

I knew you would give Biden a pass, but you guys all do.

You did? I'm one of those "guys"?

Look, let me try to break it to you gently; if you can prove your claim about Biden, then:

a) either Biden had a lapse of memory
or
b) Biden made a big-assed claim that turned out to be a lie.

I couldn't care less which one, really; all I was doing was trying to find out here what was going on.

You want my personal opinion? Personally, I think your political system is buggered, but it's not my problem, since I don't live there, and if you're the kind of person who makes immediate and completely wrong assumptions about myself as you do, then I am not going to get many facts out of you.

After all, they are only misrepresentations of facts, so who cares, right?

Please don't use me for your paranoid pity party, and see above; quite frankly you're bloody wrong about me giving Biden or anyone else a free pass. All I wanted was the facts, not this kind of bizarre reaction.

Look, I won't bother you with requests again, k? No worries mate, I live somewhere sensible. Would you like a hankerchief before I go? Here's one.

 

[Wangler]

You did? I'm one of those "guys"?

Look, let me try to break it to you gently; if you can prove your claim about Biden, then:

a) either Biden had a lapse of memory
or
b) Biden made a big-assed claim that turned out to be a lie.

I couldn't care less which one, really; all I was doing was trying to find out here what was going on.

You want my personal opinion? Personally, I think your political system is buggered, but it's not my problem, since I don't live there, and if you're the kind of person who makes immediate and completely wrong assumptions about myself as you do, then I am not going to get many facts out of you.

Please don't use me for your paranoid pity party, and see above; quite frankly you're bloody wrong about me giving Biden or anyone else a free pass. All I wanted was the facts, not this kind of bizarre reaction.

Look, I won't bother you with requests again, k? No worries mate, I live somewhere sensible. Would you like a hankerchief before I go? Here's one.

Gurdur,

I hope you accept my apology; it was wrong for me to stereotype you, or anyone else.

Sometimes I get a little excitable, and defensive. I have no real excuse.

I don't want my wrong-headed reaction to dissuade you from asking questions, or being an active participant in these threads about American politics.

Sorry!

 

[BeAChooser]

You say that Palin responded "accurately" but did NOT quote her response but did quote Biden. So for accuracy's sake, let's look at exactly what Palin said:

Quote:
PALIN: Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president.

That's entirely accurate. The role of the VP really isn't defined in the Constitution. It's sort of up to the President and VP to figure that one out. And that means it's flexible. If the President wants to put the VP in charge or this or that, it's completely up to the President. He or she will act as an agent of the president and that status can convey a great deal of power. Vice President Cheney and President Bush understood this. Apparently Obama and Biden don't. I suppose if they get elected, we'll pay Biden to simply sit around doing nothing. Right?

 

[BeAChooser]

After all, they are only misrepresentations of facts, so who cares, right?

Since Bill Clinton, certainly democrats don't.

And that wasn't the only fact Biden misrepresented in the debate.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?status=article&id=307927962885677&secid=1501

INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Posted 10/3/2008

There was also Biden's accusation that John McCain is soft on regulation, when in fact he tried to beef up regulations on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — an explanation for why he got so little campaign money from Fannie and Freddie over the years — under $22,000 — as opposed to the more than $126,000 Obama received in his short time in the Senate.

Sen. Biden falsely claimed that Obama didn't pledge to meet with Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad; he falsely claimed Gov. Sarah Palin supported a windfall profits tax on oil companies; he said he's always been for clean coal in spite of his record of voting against it in the Senate.

Biden said we have to drill for more of our own oil, easily leading viewers to conclude he and Obama are in favor of more domestic drilling, but as the American Thinker blog's Rick Moran noted in a list of "Biden's Big Lies," "Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to 'raping' the Outer Continental Shelf."

Gov. Palin called Biden on his claim that Gen. David McKiernan in Afghanistan said that the surge could not be applied in Afghanistan; in fact, McKiernan has said that some aspects of Gen. David Petraeus' Iraq strategy could be part of our war efforts in Afghanistan.

... snip ...

The Delaware Democrat falsely claimed that McCain's health care plan raises taxes, failing to mention his proposal's offsetting tax credit. And he was untruthful in claiming that under an Obama Administration the middle class will "pay no more than they did under Ronald Reagan." Obama, in fact, says he will return income tax rates to the Clinton levels, which were significantly higher than those in effect after tax reform during the Reagan Administration.

National Review's Jim Geraghty noted Biden's claim that "we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country" and concluded Biden was "off by 2,000%."

Geraghty also found that "Katie's Restaurant" in Wilmington, Del., where good old Joe invited anyone to have a beer with him, apparently hasn't been around for decades. Maybe the senator was too busy conferring with imaginary French liberators of Lebanon to visit his constituency.

And the Obama/Biden supporters on this thread will give Biden a pass on all of those. But had Palin even made one of those statements ...

Smell the hypocrisy?

 

[Cicero]

Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with decency. JFK had Addison's Disease, and was dependent on hydrocortisone, among other medications, daily just to stay alive. To try pretending as you do that it was a "drug habit" as you do is only to reveal your abysmal ignorance of medicine, and the dishonesty you stoop to in abusing those whose politics you don't agree with. You obviously either know nothing about it, or your're only too willing to lie about it.

I guess we're all lucky that JFK wasn't a diabetic and needing daily insulin, or else you would have tried pretending that was also a "drug habit".

Why don't you simply grow up?

The ship has long sailed on the truth about JFK. Stop pretending it is 1963 and we don't know what was behind the facade.

JFK never grew up. He was playing slap and tickle with Lee Radziwill, Jackie's sister, when Jackie was in the hospital giving birth to Caroline.

JFK never admitted to having Addison's Disease. He tried to sell the public that he was the picture of health. Steroids were used to treat that disease, not the barbiturates that JFK's physician, Dr. Max Jacobson, was injecting him with three times a day.

In June 1962, when RFK advised his brother to stop using Jacobson's concoctions, the president replied, "I don't care if it's horse piss. It works."

This is old news. Where have you been?

 

[Brendy]

Ever notice how Palin keep saying biden was bringing up the past too much. But Palin keep bringing up the surge every other sentence. The surge is over maam. You are bringing up the past just like you chastised Biden for. Stupid creationist hypocrit.

 

[eeyore1954]

Her solution to health care is a $5000 tax credit? The people who need health care most desperately don't pay $5000 in tax. That was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

I don't know if I agree with his health care proposal but I am pretty sure the credit is supposed to be refundable meaning you do not have to pay any taxes in order to get the credit. Similar to earned income credit. So it might not be one of the stupidest things you have ever heard.

When the cost of health care for a family is in the 1000 dollar a month range I do not know how much that 5000 will help.

 

[SezMe]

When the cost of health care for a family is in the 1000 dollar a month range I do not know how much that 5000 will help.

I do. It will help 5000/(12*1000) as much which is less than half (42% actually).

And anyone who thinks a family can get health care insurance for $1000 per month is also likely to believe in bigfoot. Both have the same likelihood of being true.

 

[Wangler]

And anyone who thinks a family can get health care insurance for $1000 per month is also likely to believe in bigfoot. Both have the same likelihood of being true.

Oh dear. It appears as if someone hasn't done some fact checking, in regards to basic queries about private medical insurance rates for families.

 

[Tricky]

I don't know if I agree with his health care proposal but I am pretty sure the credit is supposed to be refundable meaning you do not have to pay any taxes in order to get the credit. Similar to earned income credit. So it might not be one of the stupidest things you have ever heard.

You're right that would be less stupid, although calling it a "credit" is pretty misleading. I suppose "credit" sounds better to Republicans than "give away" even if it amounts to the same thing. Still, $5000 isn't going to make much of a dent on a family's health care bills if they have any sort of serious illness or accident.

 

[SezMe]

Oh dear. It appears as if someone hasn't done some fact checking, in regards to basic queries about private medical insurance rates for families.

Oh dear. It appears as if Wangler made an unwarranted assumption. I am self-employed and so have to provide my own medical insurance. I am all too familiar with the costs, the lack of comprehensive coverage, and the few choices one really has. Sure it's anecdotal but it does refute your assumption that I haven't done my fact checking.