Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

BREAKING NEWS! Verne Langdon encounters dimwit Pattycake "nightscream" on BFF. All hell breaks loose. Will he join the banned ranks that includes Dfoot?

Wowza. Didn't nightscream promise to calm down/not do this sort of thing in another, earlier thread? That being said, it's a shame that Mr. Langdon had to stoop to nightscream's level.

Here's a quote from post #200, which sparked this incident:

You have got to be kidding me! I realize now that I am sorry I ever took this guy seriously. This is your example as to what you think is an exemplary suit? I see. And not only is the Patterson creature a suit, but its a crummy one? Yes I see. Yes you are right Verne. The suits that are in the links above are very realistic looking. You could put them in a zoo and kidnap the real gorillas and nobody would be the wiser. Those suits are ammunition for the Pro-Patty side, as all they do is illustrate how rediculous suits looked back then. The man that made those suits could have in no way made a suit anywhere near the quality that would be needed to be passed off in the Patterson film.

Here are two pictures of the costume Mr. Gemora constructed for 1941's "The Monster and the Girl." Similarly, here is a picture of the suit he made for 1954's "Phantom of the Rue Morgue. Compare that to these two gorilla pictures. Similarly, compare them to the King Kong costume used in 1986's "King Kong Lives."

More information about Mr. Gemora and his suits can be found at these sites.

Here are some nightscream quotes from "Failure to Duplicate Patterson Creature, Why is it so difficult?":

Ok, so the question was asked: Where is the suit? That question has not been answered. The next question is: Why can't the "suit" in the film be duplicated?

nightscream seems to forget that skeptics think the costume would either have been immediately destroyed or long sinced rotted away.

The best minds in Hollywood have been unable to duplicate the costume to this date.

Bill Munns and Paul1968UK handled the flaws in that statement quite nicely. But I'd like to note that the only two professional attempts to create a Patty costume are Philip Morris' attempt (William Parcher has written about Morris' explanation as to the lackluster costume results in the past) and the "Big Foot" episode of "The Goodies" (Series 9, Episode 3. Broadcast: January 23, 1982). You can see the suit at in this video from 4:58-5:05. Then again, I'm not quite sure I should count it since it was made to use as a quick gag in a low budget comedy series and not as a serious recreation attempt.

Honorable mention goes to this company's costume (in development) that's inspired by Patty (and other sighting reports). Also, I believe that Drew once found a company that'd be willing to take a crack at it, but wanted a quote for the budget.

The British Broadcasting Company spent a large amount of money in an effort to duplicate the creature in the film and the results were not even close.

Incorrect. Perhaps there was talk of trying to duplicate the suit behind the scenes at some point, but the episode itself clearly states that they're just filming a (prexisting) costume from the same distance as Roger Patterson was shooting from to see what it'd look like. Interested parties can watch the segment in question here.

From Post #8:

I guess I was a little misinformed on this subject. But your post makes me also wonder. If it is a question of money today, then how did Patterson and Gimlin pay for it in 1967?

Patterson. Conman. Radford contract.

Quotes from "Has anyone changed their mind because of this footage?":

The PGF is probably a fake.
My own photographic research into the matter led me to that conclusion.

But....

There still is something about the film that hasn't been captured in others.
Hard to put my finger on it.

Maybe Patty is a real bigfoot that is suspiciously the same size and shape of a normal human being in a bigfoot suit.

I hope that soarwing will go into more detail about this,

Part of nightscream's response (Post #28) included:

When BBC attempted to do their recreation of the figure the "known" human in their film had arms that were shorter than the creature in the Patterson film.

Here are some pictures that blow away the long arms argument. 0:02 in this video and 0:47 in this video are also good examples.

People who post at the BFF are welcome to repost my comments, but please give me credit for my work.

 

[LTC8K6]

Unfortunately the photo showing John Green measuring the track along the dirt road has been shown to be a trackline made by none other than the infamous Ray Wallace. There are photos of the Green tracks showing the split line in the heel that was in in exactly the same position as a phony foot made by Wallace and matches the Green prints in size and shape.

I am well aware of the story surrounding the tracks Green is documenting in the photos. I am referring only to the human tracks in the road surface, which are clearly visible in the photos, and the claim that Patty's tracks would not show in the road surface at Bluff Creek.

 

[manofthesea]

I chocolate finger manager it .

Uh, Bill. I don't think that's chocolate on your finger.

 

[LTC8K6]

I chocolate Wednesday finger manager it kiwi.

I chocolate finger manager it .

Stop misquoting WP's CF impressions...

 

[manofthesea]

Stop misquoting WP's CF impressions...

No. Stop presuming to be a moderator. This is Th.....

Besides, I was just removing the irrelevant part of his quote.

Skeptic's 'crying wolf' is really transparent. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I'm sure nightscream would agree.

 

[LTC8K6]

No.

Then don't use the quote function when you aren't quoting...

 

[manofthesea]

Look. (mira). Willy made a false statement about what I described in my encounter. A flat out falsehood. An impeachment of the facts. A trammeling of the truth. Not a peep from you.
And I take the relevant points from his quote and you're now inflamed?

May I ever so politely suggest that you have a wiff of your own finger?

 

[kitakaze]

Better qualified? Probably am, because I've seen these big boys up close on a number of occassions, and one of the few people to ever see an entire clan together at one time as they crossed a field.

An entire myth of Bigfoots? 3, 5, 10? I suppose being up close on a number of occasions you could give a pretty good detailed description? You could understand if people don't take your word for it?

I also spend on average about 80 days and nights in the woods researching.

Yes, I love it when you guys do that. Please make more videos. They are fantastic. Who puts those together?

On a side note:
There is a trailcam picture from Oklahoma that is currently being reviewed and will be shown to Meldrum in Honobia in a few weeks, that shows a foot very similar to Patty's, be interesting to see what he thinks about it.

Are you telling us about an unambiguous trailcam image of a Bigfoot or a trailcam image of a foot?

 

[kitakaze]

Look. (mira). Willy made a false statement about what I described in my encounter. A flat out falsehood. An impeachment of the facts. A trammeling of the truth. Not a peep from you.
And I take the relevant points from his quote and you're now inflamed?

May I ever so politely suggest that you have a wiff of your own finger?

A trammeling of the truth? Your description doesn't specify how many times you heard the jet plane roar or at what point they ceased but it did imply more than one roar.

20-30 animals fleeing, forest destruction, jet plane roars, Boss of the Woods in pursuit.

I see a lot of jnugle and not a lot of truth.

 

[kitakaze]

Lu, I think you were contradicting yourself:

I don't think they're living on the fringes of cities or doing much in the way of dumpster diving. Note how many sightings are well away from human habitation.

(snip)

If they were living in close proximity to humans instead of in remote, mostly roadless areas, I'd expect many more encounters than there are. Am I writing in English yet?

Regardless of the many reports from human inhabited areas you think they are inhabiting remote, mostly roadless areas. Huh? Wait a minute:

Considering they may inhabit virtually all the marketable timber in the country, the timber industry might have reason to not want reports to be taken too seriously.

Virtually all marketable timber in the U.S.? That is utterly absurd.

 

[LAL]

According to Dr. Fish at the Skookum incident, a Bigfoot's cry can vibrate your pants, vibrate your chest cavity, and push you back against your pick-up truck ...

That was Dr. Bambeneck.

 

[LAL]

Lu, I think you were contradicting yourself:

Try again. There are reports of them coming into towns, a trailer park, farms.....

That doesn't mean they live near towns, trailer parks, farms.....A lady from Marion, NC, told me she'd seen one as a girl in a tree line. There were three fields there. I checked the map and found this isn't far from the Blue Ridge. General Lee snuck 70,000 troops through the Blue Ridge. The Southern Appalachians aren't as rugged and thickly forested as the Cascades but they're plenty rough and forested.

I bring BF books to work from time to time when it's slow enough for reading. I've had some comments, usually about something on the news or TV, or "How long could "it" (as thought there's only one) live?", but only one person out of thousands claiming she's seen one. If people are so prone to misidentify and make things up, why is this?

Virtually all marketable timber in the U.S.? That is utterly absurd.

Why? Don't you know where the marketable timber in this country is?

 

[LAL]

We've shown LAL dead bears before but maybe she forgot. Lu, you may be tempted to tell me about the rarity Bigfoots...

No, I didn't. Where are the photos of bears that died of natural causes?

 

[kitakaze]

Try again. There are reports of them coming into towns, a trailer park, farms.....

That doesn't mean they live near towns, trailer parks, farms.....A lady from Marion, NC, told me she'd seen one as a girl in a tree line. There were three fields there. I checked the map and found this isn't far from the Blue Ridge. General Lee snuck 70,000 troops through the Blue Ridge. The Southern Appalachians aren't as rugged and thickly forested as the Cascades but they're plenty rough and forested.

You know, WP has it nailed with your tendency for non sequitur anecdotes. The sightings collections are literally riddled with reports from towns, farms, parks, etc. That they are being reported in areas of human habitation has nothing to do with whether you personally think they are or are not residing in those areas. Here's a BFRO report from my hometown of Victoria, BC where they are frequenting an animal shelter on the edge of town:

http://bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=17331

I bring BF books to work from time to time when it's slow enough for reading. I've had some comments, usually about something on the news or TV, or "How long could "it" (as thought there's only one) live?", but only one person out of thousands claiming she's seen one. If people are so prone to misidentify and make things up, why is this?

Not many fellow Bigfoot enthusiasts coming to your place of employment.

Why? Don't you know where the marketable timber in this country is?

Without having consulted a map displaying the marketable timber in the U.S. I am working under the assumption that it covers a considerable range of areas across the country. I can certainly check but maybe you could tell me what you meant specifically when you said that Bigfoots may inhabit virtually all the marketable timber in the country. Or were you just commenting offhand while forgetting contradictory statements?

 

[LAL]

Unfortunately the photo showing John Green measuring the track along the dirt road has been shown to be a trackline made by none other than the infamous Ray Wallace. There are photos of the Green tracks showing the split line in the heel that was in in exactly the same position as a phony foot made by Wallace and matches the Green prints in size and shape.

By actual measure, they do not.

Ray was living in Toledo, Washington, at the time. His brother had a copy of a Titmus cast from which the wooden feet seem to have been copied. That line appears in one out 360 photos. It may be a twig or, according to John, who didn't know what it was, something they did.

If not copied from a cast, there are photos in Green's early books which were for sale next to Wallace's phony casts in the Spirit Lake Lodge. It is not known who carved the casts or when, but the pictures were available as well as Titmus' cast copies.

More here:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/john-green-on-ray-wallace/

If you haven't seen it already, I suggest you read the four part debate between John and Loren on Cryptomondo. (John kicked Loren's ass, IMO. )

 

[kitakaze]

No, I didn't. Where are the photos of bears that died of natural causes?

Other than the one I showed you? Well, there's the ones that grossed you out sometime last year, I believe. Remember the one dead from flood? What exactly does the difference between sasquatch getting stuck in a flood, mauled by a bear, or having heart failure have to do with not finding a body of one of these creatures you tell us inhabits nearly all the marketable timber in the U.S.?

 

[LAL]

First of all, "read Krantz, read Meldrum, see LMS" is a complete dead end for you as an argument. It does not matter how many times one wades through bigfootery texts and videos, the outcome is always the same- there's no reliable evidence. Most of them are nothing but attempts to repack and sell the same evidence pieces and try to convince the reader they are better than they actually are, accompained with some new (usually baseless) speculations. A single thing will convince skeptics that there's something else behind bigfootery other than a modern myth - reliable evidence (no, it does not take a body) and good methodology. "Read Krantz, read Meldrum, see LMS" can not substitute the absence of the above.

You by now should already be aware that I am not the type of person who relys on second-hand comments, so here's your answer, as if you actually needed one.

Now, stop dodging, LAL, and tell me - the book and the DVD- they use or not anecdotal evidence?

You're the one dodging, not me. You either have not seen or read them or you have a poor memory. If you've seen LMS, you tell me how it opens and what eyewitness accounts are included (if any) and in what context.

If you were to ask me about getting your sparkplugs changed (poor analogy I know, but the best I can do before my second cup of coffee), I would refer you to manuals and mechanics, not tell you to forget it because stories of people having their sparkplugs changed are "anecdotal".

Krantz, Meldrum, Green, et al have actually done some research. Why not read them?

 

[LAL]

Other than the one I showed you? Well, there's the ones that grossed you out sometime last year, I believe. Remember the one dead from flood? What exactly does the difference between sasquatch getting stuck in a flood, mauled by a bear, or having heart failure have to do with not finding a body of one of these creatures you tell us inhabits nearly all the marketable timber in the U.S.?

I remember the flood and I wasn't grossed out. I don't remember the one you showed me. Do you still have it?

Contrary to popular belief, I do not spend 24/7 hanging out on forums. I may have missed it.

I've already stated sick and dying animals tend to hole up. That means they're not easy to find even if someone is looking. The scavenger system in all that marketable timber is extremely efficient and a dedicated bone hunter would have to arrive quickly on the scene to find anything recognizable.

 

[kitakaze]

Here's a U.S. non-federal national forestry map:

http://z.about.com/d/forestry/1/0/v/A/typindex.gif

Since Bigfoots may be inhabiting virtually all marketable timber in the country, maybe you could specify where that is.

 

[Crowlogic]

I don't pretend to understand the mind of log. I think you simply give lip service to the idea that the PGF is a hoax based on the fact that every now and then you throw out a token hoax reference and spend the rest of the time arguing against it.

You say you think I simply give lip service to the PGH hoax. But you kon't know that that's what I'm doing. At least its not in one of the 28 knows of Kitakaze. Maybe I do it just to goad you.