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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Point blank question: Have you seen it?

How would anyone know they'd actually seen bigfoot? There's no consensus whatsoever on what bigfoot looks other than the general "hairy biped". If it looks even vaguely like bigfoot to them, they're gonna' think and report "bigfoot", be it bear, stump, hairy man, or whatever. Bigfoot is just the default answer when people think they saw something in the woods.

This default accounts for all of the reports of bigfoot, whether they actually were bigfoot or not.

Mountain lions in NC would rocket tourism skywards, imo. Anyone holding back reports of big cats out of fear for tourism dollars is a flaming idiot, imo.

Same for bigfoot. If they are holding those reports, they're pretty stupid.
 
I think that illustration is from Roger's book. I wonder if anyone who has this book could see if there is a caption or some reference to what is being represented.

Maybe RP had heard about the Wilder car lift encounter, and then lied to Anderson about it being his own experience.

Or maybe Anderson misremembered or misunderstood and thought a second hand account was Roger's experience.

I'll check the book again for a caption when I get home. It's on the following page after the story from the newspaper (there was more than one in the article), and I don't recall any more to it than what you posted. The article is in Roger's book. He didn't just hear about it.

There was no lifting in the Wilder account. The car was shaken - twice.
 
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OK, now that we shown the "Jaws effect" is not real, should we expect footers blaming logging and mining companies for holding back bigfoot evidence and perhaps even somehow blocking research?
 
I can't say that I've fired 30.06, but I have fired many, many 7.62x54R (30.06 is 7.62x63). Besides the shoot-through risk, it is a very high damage round. One wouldn't have to hit a primate in the head to stop it. Yes, you'd have to hit a vital organ to kill it, but any body shot will stun just about anything besides elephants.

But the idea that you'd need more than one shot is debatable because, besides being a high energy round, 30.06 is a high noise round. You don't wanna be anywhere near one being fired without ear protection.

That said, if you really believed the bigfoot stories and supposed abilities, than any commercial round from that time wouldn't have been enough protection. Even deer are dangerous to hunt, and can cause real bad damage after being hit with slug. Something that can supposedly lift a freaking car is rhino round territory. At that time it would have been something like a 9.3x64. I'm not saying that is what they should have had, because anyone who can't afford a sling can't afford a big game gun (I'm assuming that he already owned the 7.62x63).

For anyone hunting for bigfoot now? Not that I'm saying I trust you all with guns, because I'm a big hair guy who likes to walk through the woods and don't really wanna get shot because someone thinks I'm a non-human primate, but I'd start at .357 H&H mag and go up from there. .416 Rigby is good too, as are the Nitro Express rounds in .450, .470, and .500. Being good with a round is always better than getting a bigger round however. If they were used to 7.62, than that was the best round for them, and plenty of round for any primate.
 
Oh boy, this should be interesting. Photo evidence of a wild cougar in North Carolina? Do you have a link to the story and trail cam photo? (If this isn't a quick discussion, we need to make a new thread.)

It's quick. It was on Monster Quest. If it was last season I can do a capture. As I recall, it was in eastern NC. This is not to be confused with the Fine's Creek pictures. That turned out to be a hoax, but knowing that area I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're there. Accounts of mountain lions in WNC are fairly common.

I'm hoping that I'm remembering it correctly and that the scriptwriters weren't lying to us again.
 
No. When KKZ talks about "leveling the forest" he is making reference to MOTS's own claimed Bigfoot encounter. He never saw the beast, but it was smashing and crashing through the woods. All the animals of the forest were fleeing ahead of it. The whole time this unseen force is letting out a roar as loud as a "jet plane".

It's one of those ridiculous encounter stories that is worth little more than a chuckle.

I forgot about that. The part about it sounding like a 'Jet Plane' triggered my memory, thanks for the correction.
 
How would anyone know they'd actually seen bigfoot?

I was asking Correa, point blank, if he's seen LMS. Maybe I didn't make that clear enough.

Correa, have you seen Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science?

There's no consensus whatsoever on what bigfoot looks other than the general "hairy biped".

You'd be wrong there, but the differences, usually, are no more than you'd expect from normal variation in a species, or the condition of the animal.

Look at our own species;

fat-woman-skinny-man.jpg


This default accounts for all of the reports of bigfoot, whether they actually were bigfoot or not.

The default position should be neutral, zero, let's see where the evidence leads.
Mountain lions in NC would rocket tourism skywards, imo. Anyone holding back reports of big cats out of fear for tourism dollars is a flaming idiot, imo.

After telling me about her party seeing one (she didn't know what it was) from 10' away near Clingman's Dome, a tourist decided she didn't really want to move to NC after all. A hiker with child aboard reported seeing one in a tree watching them from right over the trail near Shining Rock. The rangers assured him there are none in the area. Maybe after they thought they had him calmed down they rushed right out with guns and cameras. I don't know.

Same for bigfoot. If they are holding those reports, they're pretty stupid.

Considering they may inhabit virtually all the marketable timber in the country, the timber industry might have reason to not want reports to be taken too seriously. Remember the Spotted Owl? Tourism doesn't help their business much, though it may benefit timber towns.

I wonder how much it would cost to put up signs saying "Don't feed the giant hairy apes".
 
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kitakaze wrote:

Indeed, you haven't even demonstrated that the duck foot thing is occuring in both feet.
WP did show that it can't be accounted for by what are supposed to be Patty's footprints.


Quack....quack...:)...


PattyToesGif7AAA.gif



Go right ahead and replicate that foot/toe movement, kitty.
 
Point blank question:
LMS uses or not information obtained from eyewitnesses' reports?

If you've seen it, why do you ask?

I'm not going to bother answering all this. I referred specifically to skeptical scientists staring into the camera and saying basically what I said they said. They did it in the documentaries of the 70's and not much has changed since, at least on TV.

Giganto was in Asia. So far no remains of Australopiths have been found outside Africa. That's at least closer to NA than some of the other similar animals (except for Asian Homo erectus and Homo sapiens). The forests on both continents once stretched much further north, the climate was milder, the land bridge was 1000 miles wide with groves of hardwoods, and Giganto was an ecletic omnivore, not a specialized bamboo eater.

That's what it has going for it, locationwise.
 
kitakaze wrote:




Quack....quack...:)...





Go right ahead and replicate that foot/toe movement, kitty.

Take a Converse sneaker, hold it in your hand. No move your hand downward. Done. Really, did you think it would be difficult?
 
It's quick. It was on Monster Quest. If it was last season I can do a capture. As I recall, it was in eastern NC.

I can't find it on the web. Many MQ episodes are on YouTube, but I can't find the "big cat" one.

This is not to be confused with the Fine's Creek pictures. That turned out to be a hoax, but knowing that area I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're there.

There may be numerous mountain lion hoaxes from North Carolina. I found one that is a trail cam photo attributed to Spruce Pine, NC. Another hoax is a photo of a dead individual attributed to Cashiers, NC.

Accounts of mountain lions in WNC are fairly common.

But there is still no confirmatory evidence of their presence anywhere in NC. People consistently misidentify housecats, bobcats, coyotes, etc. as being mountain lions. It happens all the time.

There is always the possibility of captive escapes or releases. But if genuine sightings are commonplace then the animal itself is probably common and roadkill is to be expected. The state is a complete blank for any functional evidence of a wild population of this cat.

I'm hoping that I'm remembering it correctly and that the scriptwriters weren't lying to us again.

It may be that they were duped. What is important is that the trail cam photo is determined to be legitimate (esp. for location), and that it obviously shows a mountain lion.
 
Bigfoot and tourism? I posted such a scenerio on BBF a while back. The idea of Bigfoot has spawned a host of concerns using Bigfoot as a trademark or attention getter. That somehow the story occured in the PNW could have easily been turned into a tourism tool. What better way to create a buzz that would bring people into a wilderness'outdoors recreational area than to give it an exciting and rare animal complete with lore and film to draw people into an area. I've long considered that this was more of a tourism stunt and it is still paying off. Every year conventions are heled in Bigfoot country and outfits like National Geographic come in and make film. All of this feeds the local economy.
 
I can't find it on the web. Many MQ episodes are on YouTube, but I can't find the "big cat" one.

I couldn't find it either. It was the one where the dog had been dug up from its grave and placed on the owner's lawn (I think). I have the first season. If it was in the second season, I don't have it. I got a dish between seasons and haven't recorded anything myself yet.

There may be numerous mountain lion hoaxes from North Carolina. I found one that is a trail cam photo attributed to Spruce Pine, NC. Another hoax is a photo of a dead individual attributed to Cashiers, NC.

How do you know they're hoaxes? Is the dead one the one that was shot in the Rockies?

Both Cashiers and Spruce Pine are in prime habitat. A couple of people in the general area of Spruce Pine told me they have mountain lions as though that's just normal. There are plenty of deer in the area.

But there is still no confirmatory evidence of their presence anywhere in NC. People consistently misidentify housecats, bobcats, coyotes, etc. as being mountain lions. It happens all the time.

The firsthand description I got was no housecat. Is there some other feline larger than a German Shepard with a tail longer than it was? Four people saw it from 10' away. I heard one of them asking what kind of cats they have around here (Cherokee) on a cell phone. His wife told me about it in person later in the day. I urged them to report it to the Park Rangers, but I doubt they did. There was still a remnant population in the Smokies, officially, in the 80's.
There is always the possibility of captive escapes or releases. But if genuine sightings are commonplace then the animal itself is probably common and roadkill is to be expected. The state is a complete blank for any functional evidence of a wild population of this cat.

Nope, they're not that common. Deer are common. I've seen roadkill once and living deer twice. One was in my driveway and I had no idea there were any in the area. I live on the edge of a growing town - been there 11 years. At first I thought it was a new dog the neighbors got, then a goat from a nearby farm, then when I blinked again it was clearly a yearling doe. It left the drive and disappeared into the woods before I could think about getting the camera. I had "buck fever" once in Washington, but that's the first time I've had "dog-goat fever". Misidentification can go both ways.

I had a cougar ranging on my land in Washington. I found tracks but I never saw it. Racoons were around too. I found tracks but never saw them either.

It may be that they were duped. What is important is that the trail cam photo is determined to be legitimate (esp. for location), and that it obviously shows a mountain lion.

I'll try to post the segment if I have it, but maybe not until later in the week. It's obviously a mountain lion.

Can we get back to the topic now?
 
Actually, based on your post, you understand what I have been saying all along. ( and just said it yourself) Let me give you the backstory here. This "issue" has been a running issue over several months over there and over a half dozen threads so maybe you ( or others) didnt see the "original" point of contention so in a less clogged environment, let me tell you the "original" statement. ( the rest is deliberate convolution and obfuscation to get out of being shown to be wrong by someone else)

I ( we) use both methods ( literal PG in the CE group for measuring facilities etc and the relative methods for back engineering, R&D etc and have state of the art equipment for both)

The ONLY difference between the 2 methods is accuracy. ( literal PG can get down to the thousandths of an inch and the relative methods can give you an acceptable[ theres a word thats as long as it is wide LOL] measurements to build a gorss device and then the process of "field fitting" begins)

I've never said anything different.

The original issue on the table was this- are the measurements of the PGF verifiable to within or without the RANGE of HUMAN capability. ( that was it, nothing more)

I think everyone would agree ( I know I would) that IF it could be proven the film subject was outside the known ranges of human capability- the issue would be over. ( be it gait,stride,ratios,height etc)

Thats how this all started.

Its understood that an accurate ( no range of any appreciable accuracy) dimensioning of the film subject isnt possible because of the lack of necessary information. That leaves a range "guestimated" between X and Y.

I didnt do it myself but read others who have and I AGREE the the most probable and accurate RANGE estimates is somewhere between 5-9 and about 6-3. ( I have stated that and never said otherwise)
Ok I see what you are saying. My only critique is that you lumped relative measurements (ratios) into the mix.

literal PG can get down to the thousandths of an inch and the relative methods can give you an acceptable[ theres a word thats as long as it is wide LOL] measurements to build a gorss device and then the process of "field fitting" begins
With relative measurements you also get down to the thousandths of an inch. Photo units are just as precise as any instrument you use in your business. These are the units for relative measurements. We are measuring the image not the actual object. The restoration of the object from 2-D to 3-D is the source of the error not the instrument precision. That is where the interpretation comes in. You need to track reliable body markers relative to surface features to estimate where the joints are on the guy in the suit. Then associate them wrt a 3-D model. Any results would be contentious but it all depends on what you are trying to determine. It is a waste of time unless you can establish an acceptable range of uncertainty. What is acceptable? The only things we might be able to establish through measurement are the relative dimensions of Patsy and compare those values against an average human of the same approximate height. The height itself can be roughly determined through other means. There does seem to be enough information for estimating various ratios X microns/Y microns * 100. The accuracy and the meaning of it all remains to be seen.
 
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Take a Converse sneaker, hold it in your hand. No move your hand downward. Done. Really, did you think it would be difficult?
You mean jerk your hand down? What about when there is a foot in it which is only a few inches smaller?

This one is not quite as easy to discredit as some of the other features. What is the physical action of the costume foot at work here? I do not think these are shadows. The apparent flexing of the foot is an anomaly. Maybe Bill Munns has some thoughts on how a costume foot might do this.
 
The initial platypus "absurdity issue" seems different than that of Bigfoot.

For the platypus, it was the absurdity of the physical specimen itself. As if evolution could not or would not produce such an animal. Part mammal and part bird? Huh. They were skeptical of that.
As well as that, though, there had been a number of hoaxes brought back from the "Indies" that also made them suspicious. So much so that the first person to describe it, Dr. George Shaw, cut the original pelt up looking for stitching.

But the argument that scientists are fools (or whatever the point of bringing up the platypus was) doesn't hold water. The first specimen arrived in the UK in 1799 (the account a year earlier was a sketch and a pelt) and another specimen was then fully described in 1800.

So from a sketch and a skin we have a taxonomical naming within two years of the first appearance of a Platypus.

Compare that to 40 years since the PGF.
But the underlying absurdity of Bigfoot is not really based on its proposed physicality. We can imagine evolution producing an 8-foot tall species of bipedal hominoid (or ape if you like) that is adapted to forests or other environments. The absurdity is that such an animal could live in North America and not be officially confirmed whatsoever. Thousands of encounters (some very close) over hundreds of years and not a single piece of this animal to show for itself. That is absurd.
... and of course, there are fossils of Platypus ancestors dating back to the time of the dinosaurs.

So.
Platypus.
Thought a hoax, proved not to be within a year of discovery by examination of physical evidence
Fossil record exists.
No issue on evidence for it's existence.

Bigfoot.
Fuzzy film being debated for 40 years.
No physical specimen ever produced.
Hoaxes abound.
No fossil record for similar species on the continent.

You're right, the issue of the absurdity of the Platypus' existence is just not in the same league as that for BF...
 
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A helpful member sent me a link to the MQ cougar photo from NC. I didn't find it myself because the episode is called "Vampire Beast". I couldn't imagine that that had anything to do with cougars in North Carolina. Doug Hajicek can be tricky.

The relevant part starts at 1:30. The cell phone photo of the subject is first shown at 2:46. The photographer wishes to remain anonymous (to the public, or even extending to expert investigators?). Quote: "... although Monster Quest has not authenticated the photo, there is no doubt about the identity of the creature..." I agree that the creature looks very much like a cougar. IMO, it almost certainly is. The narrator points out the black-tipped tail, but I'm not sure we are seeing the tail tip or a black background spot. It doesn't matter much because the overall visible body form is that of a cougar. A photo of a footprint is shown at 4:30. The track isn't very clear, but it has characteristics suggesting a large canid (teardrop shaped, rather than roundish).

Lu, if we don't drop this subject now, we will need to make a new thread as this is off topic.
 
Odinn:

"This one is not quite as easy to discredit as some of the other features. What is the physical action of the costume foot at work here? I do not think these are shadows. The apparent flexing of the foot is an anomaly. Maybe Bill Munns has some thoughts on how a costume foot might do this."

These are my original notes of Jan. 9 on foot mechanics:

"FOOT MECHANICS

I have heard of three various concepts of putting mechanics into feet, which are 1. to pump fluid/air into muscle simulation areas of a suit. 2. to use a mechanism to bend the toes of enlarged prosthetic feet for a more natural walk cycle. and 3. to use mechanics to pull the toes of an enlarged prosthetic foot down to fascilitate making big footprints with the mime's feet while walking.

The first I mentioned in a thread in answer to a question about fluid pumps in the feet to help make muscle dynamics in a suit look better, but I am repeating the answer here.

When "The Howling" came out (1980), everybody in the business was trying to do everything with bladders, every producer wanted them (bragging rights), and nobody ever got anything working well with fluid bladders, just air bladders. It's the flow rate through a tube, plus tube length. We did a lot of blood tube stuff for bleeding wounds, cut veins "spurting" blood, etc. at the time.

You couldn't put a very big fluid resivoir in the foot to step on,and it would have to be shaped like a rigid hydraulic cylinder, not just a loose pouch or bag, because you must guarantee the fluid, once "stepped on" would flow only into the tube, not just expand the bag in a sideways direction in the shoe, the tube up to the "muscle" would slows down the reactive time (internal friction in the tube), and the rigid fur would overpower the fluid pressure, so the bladder would expand sideways or down back toward the mime's body, not outward. Bladders of any kind only worked well under thin foam latex prosthetics, because the foam has great elasticity and stretched so easily, so the bladder could expand it. No such luck for the fur areas.

The second concept is to give the larger prosthetic foot a more natural look, by allowing the appearance of toes pulling up during the walk cycle. Absent this, the prosthetic toes extending beyond the real foot inside simply stick straight out and do nothing. I've heard of a simple level mechanism driven by pressure on the heel to curl up the toes, or pressure on the ball of the foot. I have never seen an engineering drawing, much less a working mechanism of either, and in contemplating both, I haven't seen any effective way to actually impliment this.

The third device uses some weight of the body on a part of the real foot to force a mechanism in the prosthetic toes to pull downward, to "grip" the ground better, to make a better footprint (since the prosthetic toes, if rigid, would greatly increase the risk of the mime stumbling, and if flexible, would negate any prospect the prosthetic foot could make a strong toe print in the walking process. It's very flexibility that would fascilitiate the mime's walking would pervent it from making an footprint.) I have never seen an engineering drawing, much less a working mechanism of either, and in contemplating both, I haven't seen any effective way to actually impliment this idea either.

All these elements may have been theorized by proponents of suits to explain how a larger prosthetic foot could either A). pump fluid to make suit muscles bulge; or . make the big foot prosthetic move more naturally, or C). make the prosthetic foot capable of accomplishing the big footprints.

I have yet to see any of these accomplished in a working mechanism, to accomplish one of the three results, and I cannot imagine a mechanism that might accomplish two or three of these things. So if an argument for a suit is advanced, and it includes any description to a foot mechanism doing any of these things, I would expect to see a working mechanism before I would give any creedance to the claim."

(end original notes)

The basic challenge to any foot mechanics is that the toes bending or straightening, or any "mid-tarsal break" argued for, is that the bending/straightening of the foot is on a different cycle of action from the ground pressure of the foot with weight on it, so a self contained mechanism using foot pressure on the ground does not get the bend/unbend motion timed correctly.

That means an external mechanism controller would likely be needed, which tends to complicate the whole thing, because natural walk cycles and foot joint bends are so automatic as to be almost unconscious. So any operator trying to consciously operate a flexing foot, mechanical complications aside, has a programming challenge not easily resolved.

So my response to any argument for foot bending devices would be to ask, "show me the mechanism" in at least a schematic design drawing, something indicating joints, linkage, actuator mechanisms and controller mechanisms. It may be as simple as springs and connecting rod levers, but I'd still like to see it diagrammed, if someone argued for it.

Bill
 
Lu, if we don't drop this subject now, we will need to make a new thread as this is off topic.

See above where I asked if we could get back to the topic. Thank you for saving me the trouble of watching all those episodes again. I'm actually not a big MQ fan.

The only caption on the drawing is "A Rude Awakening".

The Wilder story says he was "awakened by his car being shook up two different times", so that, apparently, is the story being illustrated.
 
Considering they may inhabit virtually all the marketable timber in the country, the timber industry might have reason to not want reports to be taken too seriously.

The timber industry is another strike against Bigfoot. Maybe it would be difficult to find a body in virgin forest. But how much timber is cleared in North America each year? Yet no logger has come out of the forest with squatch remains in the back of his truck. The industry be damned... that body is a huge windfall for the guy that found it.
 
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