Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[William Parcher]

BobZenor occasionally cranks out some good stuff on BFF.


Duckfoot in motion with a really strange looking foot sole...

Weird action at the upper thigh...

 

[LAL]

Excuse me, but did you just say that you found dead animals in the forest in support of there being no bigfoot bodies found?

No, I said I found a few bones. In the case of my mare I knew right where they should have been. They weren't there, except for a few vertebrae and those were covered in moss.

Just how many people do you think there are combing the forests looking for bones, especially off road and off trail?

 

[mangler]

Lu,

A hell of a lot of people up here collect animal skulls as a hobby, quite successfully I might add.


m

 

[LAL]

You should know by now that Laverty did not find them "the next day". He and his crew came across the tracks on Monday, October 23.

My bad. Should have been next Monday. P&G were back in Yakima by then, arriving late Saturday night or early Sunday morning.

 

[LAL]

Monster Quest was duped, and the two men speaking in the episode may have been fooled as well.

Well, that sucks.

I'm not sure that's the same picture. The one I'm remembering was NV trail cam. I'll have to see if I can find it after all, just to check out my memory.

 

[William Parcher]

Just how many people do you think there are combing the forests looking for bones, especially off road and off trail?

Lu, this gets right to the heart of the absurdity of Bigfoot. It's wrong to ask about the number of people out in the forest at any given time. Instead you should ask about the sum total of all people who have ever gone into North American forests in 400+ years of "civilized" colonization and immigration. Is it billions? Tens of billions? What is that number?

You could bring up the analogy of the needle in a haystack. Most would bet against a person or group finding that needle. But if you tell them that billions of people will be entering that haystack, then the money switches to the needle being found. This is the issue with Bigfoot.

Believing that this creature actually exists in perpetuation without any functional confirmatory evidence stands against rationality and reason. The belief is absurd.

One way or another, Bigfooters need to find some way to deal with the fact that their belief is irrational and unreasonable. Maybe you have done this and the result is that you get on Internet forums and talk to skeptics as if they are the ones with a problem.

 

[LAL]

Funny how those prints look like they are stamped out from vertical pressure ( equally deep front and rear ) rather
than by a foot that is in motion, pushing off from the ball as seen in the film ..

Or by the feet being placed flat and picked straight up in a compliant gait. I find it hard to do it any other way.

Was there a separate stamp for the one indicating a mid-tarsal bend?

I thought the film was too blurry to see things like a foot pushing off from the ball.

Speaking of matching..
Why do you suppose that Pattyfoot has a concavity on the outside edge of the foot, rather than the inside, as you would expect in a bipedal primate ?

[qimg]http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb281/LAL2U/Pattysfoot.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:5kxXseoqVk8MmM:http://www.whyte.org/bears/guide/humanleftfootprint-.gif[/qimg]

Um, because there's no arch and this isn't a human bipedal primate? Just a guess.........

 

[William Parcher]

Or by the feet being placed flat and picked straight up in a compliant gait. I find it hard to do it any other way.

But if Duckfoot had her duck toes angled skyward then she wasn't stamping flatfoot. Maybe she mixes everything up with a foot that acts like a Lava Lamp. Argue with Sweety about this and I'll stand back to watch the sparks.

 

[Kilaak Kommander]

No, I said I found a few bones. In the case of my mare I knew right where they should have been. They weren't there, except for a few vertebrae and those were covered in moss.

You make light of it, but those vertebrae would be enough to confirm the existence of Bigfoot. Or a thighbone. Or a jawbone.

Just how many people do you think there are combing the forests looking for bones, especially off road and off trail?

Good question. How many Bigfoot groups hold expeditions across North America? There are at least that many.

Unfortunately, they produce a lot of "other stuff" evidence. Not unlike ghost hunting. They'll go looking for a specific entity described by witnesses, say a Civil War-era soldier. The results are always, "we didn't actually see a soldier, but we got a lot of OTHER STUFF". Pictures with orbs, temperature anomalies, EVPs that may or may not say "WCRR: Cleveland's source for classic rock".

None of that is a soldier. Much as a broken branch or an odd sound is not a Bigfoot.

 

[LAL]

You could bring up the analogy of the needle in a haystack. Most would bet against a person or group finding that needle. But if you tell them that billions of people will be entering that haystack, then the money switches to the needle being found. This is the issue with Bigfoot.

Well that's good news. I'd hate to think our researchers are wasting their time. We don' t have billions yet..........

Try moving needle in a haystack (Peter Bryrne's phrase).

There are accounts of them being shot and killed, one (to my knowledge) of a possible body being found, hundreds of U.S. sightings reported every year (except from Hawaii), and physical evidence already mentioned. With all that going on, of course you have to say it's all just stories and fakery and that people who think there's something to it are "irrational". Otherwise you might have to admit we could be sharing the planet with another bipedal primate.

It's known Homo sapiens overlapped with at least three human species and our ancestors overlapped with four or more other bipedal primate species. Why is it difficult to believe there could be other bipedal primates living today?

Are we special or something?

 

[William Parcher]

Try moving needle in a haystack (Peter Bryrne's phrase).

A dead Bigfoot doesn't move.

Are we special or something?

We are not special. Bigfoot is not special. That small remnant population of Tyrannosaurs living in Montana is special. Folks need to know what is special and what is not.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

BobZenor occasionally cranks out some good stuff on BFF.


Duckfoot in motion with a really strange looking foot sole...

[qimg]http://www.bigfootforums.com/uploads//monthly_10_2007/post-3276-1193325341.gif[/qimg]


Weird action at the upper thigh...

Oh, I really like that one..

You can clearly see the rear of the upper thigh disappearing under the fur diaper.
You can also see the part above waist seam slipping past the part below.

Perhaps Mr. Munns will comment.

 

[Kilaak Kommander]

Are we special or something?

Nope, we're an animal like any other. And so, presumably, is Bigfoot.

I'm open to the possibility that this species exists. However, it too would be an animal like any other. I'm not open to it being a supernatural entity, or having "superpowers".

So that's what makes me skeptical. Why can't it be tracked and captured? Or hunted and killed? Or just documented in its natural habitat, nature film style? No other species is above these things, not even humans. Especially given that Bigfoot is supposed to be in close to proximity to humans on a regular basis. It doesn't live at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

 

[LAL]

You make light of it, but those vertebrae would be enough to confirm the existence of Bigfoot. Or a thighbone. Or a jawbone.

Light of it? Do you have any idea how I felt seeing those bones? I bred her, I raced her (she was a trotter), I broke her to harness and to saddle...........

My point was that even knowing exactly where to look those bones were difficult to find. If I'd just been hiking on the old skid road I'd have overlooked them because they blended right in. The rest had been towed away. I found the filly's jaw bone a quarter of a mile away in the same talus where I'd found the deer jaw years earlier.

Skamania County is unbelievably rugged - it's all volcanic. Second growth has a tangle of Vine Maple under the canopy. It's not the kind of forest you can just walk through. There are boulders the size of buses and it's dark. There are fallen trees, lava tubes, steep-sided canyons, an active volcano, and a national forest larger than the state of Delaware.

Just where would be the best place to start looking for bones?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that proposed Bigfoot habitat is not limited to this unbelievably rugged Skamania County .. Not to mention that finding bones shouldn't be any harder than finding the tracks..
Why do the tracks just happen to end up beside freshly graded roads and in creek beds ?

 

[LAL]

Nope, we're an animal like any other. And so, presumably, is Bigfoot.

I'm open to the possibility that this species exists. However, it too would be an animal like any other. I'm not open to it being a supernatural entity, or having "superpowers".

Neither am I. I don't think they're especially "elusive" either. They're just rare and largely nocturnal.

So that's what makes me skeptical. Why can't it be tracked and captured? Or hunted and killed? Or just documented in its natural habitat, nature film style? No other species is above these things, not even humans. Especially given that Bigfoot is supposed to be in close to proximity to humans on a regular basis. It doesn't live at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

Who's supposing they're in close proximity to humans on a regular basis?

We just had a visit from the director of MABRC. He might be better qualified to answer those questions.

They've been tracked; sometimes the people turned back when they began to wonder what would happen if they caught up. It took Goodall months to catch her first glimpse of Chimpanzees and they were a noisy bunch mostly confined to one African valley.

It helps to have funding for full time research.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Was there any doubt that Chimps existed before Ms ( I hope Bigfoot exists ) Goodall found her batch ?

Let's hear about the lost aircraft in the PNW again...

Then we can remind you that we actually have evidence that aircraft exist prior to being lost ...


I know, both sides just keep repeating the same old tired excuses and rejoinders ..

 

[LAL]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that proposed Bigfoot habitat is not limited to this unbelievably rugged Skamania County ..

I'm not but that's where I lived. Skamania County had the highest number of reported sightings in the country for years. There are footprint casts, the Skookum Cast, miles long trackways and the first official recognition.

There may be an active area in your state.

Not to mention that finding bones shouldn't be any harder than finding the tracks..
Why do the tracks just happen to end up beside freshly graded roads and in creek beds ?

Because they're rarely visible anyplace else. An exception would be trackways in snow.

Bones would be harder to find for all the reasons mentioned

 

[Kilaak Kommander]

They've been tracked; sometimes the people turned back when they began to wonder what would happen if they caught up.

If they can be tracked, why hasn't one been poached? Fear and morality don't apply to poachers. They'll take anything that's worth something, no matter how large, dangerous, rare, or clever it may happen to be. We were just discussing the okapi, which hadn't been photographed in the wild. Yet it's regularly poached.

 

[William Parcher]

Was there any doubt that Chimps existed before Ms ( I hope Bigfoot exists ) Goodall found her batch ?

Zoos were full of chimpanzees when Jane was trying to get cozy with them in the wild.

Forget coughing up piles of money for Bigfoot research. We only want a chunk of one. How much did it cost to confirm the existence of the super elusive chimps?

Lu, your style of arguing for Bigfoot is fascinating. You seem to rely on repetitively reciting factoids from Bigfoot books and lore. Their habitat is hard to negotiate. They are mostly nocturnal. They've been shot but we don't have a body. There is evidence for them in various forms. You act like you think this stuff will work.

If you were arguing for unicorns it would go like this...

Unicorn Skeptic: These animals don't exist.
Lu: The horn is attached to the forehead.
US: We have no unicorn horns or fossils.
Lu: The earth dissolves unicorn horns and their bodies.
US: You'd think we would have one of these things by now.
Lu: Robert Sumpter was kicked by one in 1853. He said the pain in his shin lasted for three years and was aggravated each time his pet Bulldog named "Roscoe" rubbed up against him.
US: There's just no good reason to believe that unicorns exist.
Lu: As far as we can tell, they are a kind of horse.

This just goes on and on and on...