Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[clayflingythingy]

It's not usual to find anything dead lying around in the forest.

Malarkey. You won't find animal remains sitting at a keyboard but if you spend time outdoors you will! Back in my woods stomping days I found the remains of squirrels, foxes, opossums, raccoons, deer, various birds, and probably some other critterrs I have now forgotten. Since I grew up in an agricultural area you would also occasionally stumble across the remains of a horse or cow that had died.

Skeletons don't necessarily disappear within days. I remember one cow skull and some of the larger bones that lasted for several years.

Accidents happen to animals the same as happen to people. Lightning strikes, rock slides, falls, etc can all kill an animal. Since bigfoot is found coast to coast someone would have at least stumbled across a skull and a few rib bones.

 

[William Parcher]

There's a reason the guy wanted to remain anonymous. It's because he pulled the picture off a Texas wildlife site, and submitted it as the dreaded vampire beast in NC. I don't have linking privileges, so I can't give a link.

Thanks, xblade. You can post the web address the same way you did on August 26th. You are only prevented from creating a hyperlink.

 

[William Parcher]

This had to do with whether or not Roger thought sasquatches were terrifying VW-flinging monsters. In reading his book (and I have read it) I find nothing to indicate that.

Anderson says that RP told him a Bigfoot lifted his car. RP created an illustration of an enormous Bigfoot gripping a VW Beetle. That creature appears large enough to lift the car without much problem. Don't obfuscate by trying to change the subject to "VW-flinging". Nobody is talking about Bigfoot throwing a car like it does with pigs.

How high is the knee on a Bigfoot? Oh, about the height of the hood on a VW Beetle. Check the illustration again.

That would have had to have been done before Lyle Laverty and crew found them the next day and with no trace left of the activity.

Busy guy, that Roger.

You should know by now that Laverty did not find them "the next day". He and his crew came across the tracks on Monday, October 23.

It's interesting that Laverty found the tracks the day he came back to work after the weekend. But Titmus said it took him several days to find the tracks even after watching the film in Canada and having access to RP for specific directions on where the tracks were located.

 

[Correa Neto]

I have to wonder how likely it is that the tracks survived for that time. There was no rain after the one that happened before Laverty´s arrival?

Not that I buy the whole PGF tale, but time passage may account for Titmu's problems. Of course this adds an extra issue- the question if the preservation level actually allowed Titmus to draw any usefull conclusion out of the tracks.

1. How much can we trust in Titmus' report?
2. Has he really managed to find Patty's tracks?
3. If the answer to (2) is "yes", then what was the preservation level?
4. If the answer to (2) is "yes", has he really managed to interpret them correctly?
5. Is it possible that he (and laverty as well) overlooked or not found due to preservation issues, signs which would indicate a hoax?

 

[darkwing]

Are you saying you are not going to support my exposing of hoaxes at MABRC? Are you going to withdraw your 'behind the scenes support'? or are you going to withdraw your public support? Oh wait, you haven't supported me publicly in any MABRC forums. Your public non-support is much more detrimental to 'real bigfoot research'. Or maybe you supported me in one of the public forums and I missed it, If you were really going to support my hoax-busting at MABRC, then you should start with the Yowiie thread. That would be a good place.

Exposing of hoaxes? Excuse me Drew, you haven't exposed any hoax at the MABRC Forums. Yowiie posted a picture and gave his interpretation of it, of what he saw, you jump up and scream that you debunked it, yet offered nothing to support what you claimed was debunked.

You are not a hoax-buster, because you don't never support your statements or claims yourself, and how can it be a hoax, when the person is not intentionally trying to fool anyone, they are merely stating what they see in the picture, nothing more, nothing less.

Debunking is not merely claiming you did it, you have to show how it's been debunked if you want anyone to take it seriously. IMHO

 

[William Parcher]

We cannot know if Roger Patterson was "woo" because we cannot know if he actually believed that Bigfoot existed. Sorta like a snake oil salesman who has no real belief that the substance cures ailments, but knows that some people will buy it if you tell them that it does. A wild marketing pitch is not necessarily an indication that the seller is woo. It may only show that the seller recognizes that real woos will part with their money when given a certain kind of fantasy scenario.

How high is the navel on a Bigfoot? Oh, about the height of the roof on a VW Beetle. How big is their foot? Oh, about the same as the diameter of a VW tire.

Did Roger Patterson draw a 9-footer hugging a car? Who cares if he did. It doesn't mean that he would tell anyone that this creature is a car-lifter. This illustration is no indication that RP had any attraction or time for dramatic exaggeration or outright bullcrap.

 

[William Parcher]

I have to wonder how likely it is that the tracks survived for that time. There was no rain after the one that happened before Laverty´s arrival?

Not that I buy the whole PGF tale, but time passage may account for Titmu's problems. Of course this adds an extra issue- the question if the preservation level actually allowed Titmus to draw any usefull conclusion out of the tracks.

1. How much can we trust in Titmus' report?
2. Has he really managed to find Patty's tracks?
3. If the answer to (2) is "yes", then what was the preservation level?
4. If the answer to (2) is "yes", has he really managed to interpret them correctly?
5. Is it possible that he (and laverty as well) overlooked or not found due to preservation issues, signs which would indicate a hoax?

Those are good questions and we have discussed them previously in this thread.

Here are Patty casts made by Titmus...

These two are supposed to have been created by the same foot. What do you think?...

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Funny how those prints look like they are stamped out from vertical pressure ( equally deep front and rear ) rather
than by a foot that is in motion, pushing off from the ball as seen in the film ..



Speaking of matching..
Why do you suppose that Pattyfoot has a concavity on the outside edge of the foot, rather than the inside, as you would expect in a bipedal primate ?

 

[Correa Neto]

Yes, we raised these questions before. And AFAIK, obtained no satisfactory answer. At least not from the pro-bigfoot perspective...

Repeating them (as well as other ones) is necessary, I think, because this thread is very long, messy and footers quite often talk about pieces of footer lore as if they were uncontestable truths.

Those casts being from the same foot?
I find it hard to believe, unless the plaster suffered some major shearing...

But hey, they already look so artificial... As if created by vertical pression of an anatomically-incorrect carving....

Oh, its an unknown species, folks!

 

[Drewbot]

Exposing of hoaxes? Excuse me Drew, you haven't exposed any hoax at the MABRC Forums. Yowiie posted a picture and gave his interpretation of it, of what he saw, you jump up and scream that you debunked it, yet offered nothing to support what you claimed was debunked.

You are not a hoax-buster, because you don't never support your statements or claims yourself, and how can it be a hoax, when the person is not intentionally trying to fool anyone, they are merely stating what they see in the picture, nothing more, nothing less.

Debunking is not merely claiming you did it, you have to show how it's been debunked if you want anyone to take it seriously. IMHO

DW- Thanks for the tips on Hoax-Busting!, Please note, I wasn't trying to claim I am an expert hoax-buster, I was simply mocking LAL's attempt to blackmail me, The hoax-busting comments were satire directed at LAL threatening not to back me up at MABRC.

Tracking dogs? you mean the ones he 'tried' to get from British Columbia? If you want to call that a try, I guess it's pointless to even argue with you.

It's pointless if you want the support of the only MABRC mod who's stood up for you.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4039491&postcount=15946

The above comment is what I was commenting on sarcastically.

 

[LAL]

Malarkey. You won't find animal remains sitting at a keyboard but if you spend time outdoors you will!

Excuse me, but I lived in forest in a tent, a camper, a trailer and a house. I spent many hours mushrooming, riding, climbing and just plain wandering over terrain that had no trails. I may have walked where no human had walked before me.

I found a deer jawbone, skeletons of trapped coyotes and few remains of two of my horses that died of a mysterious disease. Coyotes had scattered the bones so well I never would have found them if I hadn't known approximately where to look.

I once laid a blanket out on the top of a hill, laid down and was promptly investigated by a vulture. It wasn't about to wait until I was dead. <G>

The area had bear, cougar, coyotes, wolves, bobcats, eagles.............The scavenger system goes from bears on the large end to microbes on the small, and the forest litter covers anything that isn't eaten.

I wasn't in a rural area, I was in mature second growth timber. Big difference.

 

[LAL]

DW- Thanks for the tips on Hoax-Busting!, Please note, I wasn't trying to claim I am an expert hoax-buster, I was simply mocking LAL's attempt to blackmail me.

No blackmail intended, it was just my ever-so-subtle way of suggesting you don't alienate me -mockery would be a good way to do that.

You're on your own now, kid.

 

[tyr_13]

I wasn't in a rural area, I was in mature second growth timber. Big difference.

Excuse me, but did you just say that you found dead animals in the forest in support of there being no bigfoot bodies found?

First off, I have the word of a conservation proffesor backing me when I say this, mature forests destroy bodies LESS than brush forests.

Second off, there are plenty of bigfoot sightings, like you enjoy reminding us, and many of them take place in rural areas, not mature forests. So your point is kind of moot isn't it?

 

[William Parcher]

Again, this is supposed to be the same foot. They have significant differences. The cast on the left shows the classic "angle" arrangement of human toes. The big toe is obviously forward of the little toe. The one on the right shows toes that are close to being inline with each other. How or why would that happen with actual living toes on the same foot?

Additionally, the ball (cushiony part of the sole just behind the toes) of the left cast shows an angle similar to the toes. The right one is shaped differently and has almost no angle at all.

It's enough visual information for me to think that these tracks were made by different "feet". And also that neither one of them looks like it was made from living dynamic feet in a brisk walk across sand.

It's as if a counterfeiter created two different phony twenty-dollar bills.

 

[William Parcher]

Lu, the sum total of all animal carcasses and skeletons found in the wild is not limited to your own personal experiences. Just because you haven't seen a particular species dead or alive doesn't mean that nobody else has either. It is intellectually dishonest to claim something like "no dead bears are found". It is simply not true.

Are Bigfoot believers so bankrupt that they have to resort to absurd arguments such as "nobody should really expect to ever find a Bigfoot carcass"? Nobody finds dead leprechauns because the earth and its denizens simply chews them up before any person can find them. Besides that, most leprechauns crawl into a hole or crevice before they die. This perfectly explains why the Irish can see living leprechauns, but nobody can find a dead one.

 

[xblade]

Thanks, xblade. You can post the web address the same way you did on August 26th. You are only prevented from creating a hyperlink.

Ok, didn't want to break any rules by trying to get around the rules, lol.

Here is the same picture, though not as blurry as the MQ version, and the caption says it was taken in East Texas:

book-of-thoth.com/portalsupport/coppermine/displayimage-topn-22-9.html

Here is another picture of a cougar stalking a black tail deer in the same location:

book-of-thoth.com/portalsupport/coppermine/displayimage-topn-22-10.html

This photo was also posted at an Arkansas trail cam site, and reported as taken in Oregon. Frankly, who knows where it was actually taken. But the deer part is key because there are no black tail deer in NC. So, wherever it was taken, it wasn't taken in NC.

On a side note, does anyone find it interesting that we can get a clear trailcam shot of a cougar 2 feet or so away from the deer he's about to pounce on, but can't get one clear shot of bigfoot? I've seen a clear trail cam shot of a raccoon riding the back of a wild boar at night, but not one clear picture of a bigfoot.

 

[EHocking]

...On a side note, does anyone find it interesting that we can get a clear trailcam shot of a cougar 2 feet or so away from the deer he's about to pounce on, but can't get one clear shot of bigfoot? I've seen a clear trail cam shot of a raccoon riding the back of a wild boar at night, but not one clear picture of a bigfoot.

Damn you, you made me look...
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/05/30/trail-camera-company.html

ETA: Caution. That site seems to want to execute a PDF when I access it (never see one, but it triggers Adobe each time)

 

[William Parcher]

Thank you, xblade. There is a pattern of hoaxery with cougar photos. People are snatching genuine photos of cougars from their known range (generally west of the Mississippi) and then claiming the photos originate from eastern states. This is an example.

Monster Quest was duped, and the two men speaking in the episode may have been fooled as well.

Lu, the cellphone camera photo from North Carolina is a hoax. We can probably end this topic now. There is no functional evidence that cougars are living in NC. It's pretty much the same as with Bigfoot.

 

[xblade]

Nope, they're not that common. Deer are common. I've seen roadkill once and living deer twice.

And you live in western NC? I find that hard to believe. I don't even live in western NC, and I have seen more deer there than that. I used to deliver drugs to Henderson at least once a week, and it was not uncommon at all to see live deer or roadkill there, or in any other part of the state in between. Living in eastern NC(Greenville) if I don't see at least 2 live deer a week, it's because I haven't gotten out of bed. And seeing only one roadkill deer a month would be a very conservative estimate. Heck, I've already seen one today, lol. Had to call 911 one evening because a deer had been hit by a car, but was still alive and laying, or sitting, or whatever deer do, in the middle of one lane on the highway just below the crest of a hill, making it a traffic hazard.

Also saw a black bear on one drug run to a different part of the state, and without a doubt, I can understand how people might think they were seeing a bigfoot, especially if they were preconditioned to such a thing. Also saw a dead black bear near a friend's house last year. Hit by a car. Never seen a dead bigfoot that was hit by a car though. No one has, despite all the sightings that happen near roads.

A month ago, when walking my dog, we came across a dead red fox in the field by my house. Two months ago, the police had to come out and kill a sick gray fox that had gotten into my fenced backyard and was tangling with my dog. Feared it was rabies, but it was something else. The same fox used to eat cat food with the cats at night. Now only possums come, lol. Funny thing, the cats weren't afraid of the fox, but they run from the possums.

Anyway, I'm rambling. The point is animal sightings, dead or alive, are not that rare at all, unless you never get out of the house. That you say you've spent lot's of time outdoors, but hardly ever see things as common as deer makes no sense to me, but it's possible. With 6 billion people on this planet, it's not possible that none of them ever come across dead animals. It's also highly unlikely that not a single one of them would ever come across a bigfoot body, unless bigfoot didn't exist.

PS
No, I wasn't a drug dealer, lol. I used to deliver drugs to nursing homes all over the state for a pharmacy.

 

[William Parcher]

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