Do Most Atheists Know that science..... Part 2

[Fiona]

As long as you can't be certain that God doesn't exist, the absolute belief that God does not exist requires some faith. If you're 99.99 percent sure God doesn't exist, you still require 00.01 faith to be an atheist.

If you're 100% sure God (the intelligent Creator of the universe) doesn't exist then how did you determine that.

DOC, I realise that you perhaps find my posts far down the list of things you have time to respond to, but I confess I am a little disappointed to find you continuing in this vein. You simply do not understand the position of at least some atheists, so I will say it again.

You asked if atheists do not care about the origin of the universe: well surprising as it may be to you that is exactly where I find myself. I couldn't give a toss, frankly. What science is telling us is interesting but it does not impinge on my life at all and my interests (as in what I really pay attention to) are elsewhere.

I wonder if that is a problem for you. I have seen many people insist that everybody is interested in the "big questions of life" like why we are here and what happens after death. If that is what you believe then I am here for to tell you that it is not universally true. I do not care because I concluded long ago that these things are not knowable. Once I reached that conclusion I never troubled my light-minded little head about it again. I quite like hearing what scientists and theologists are doing about it, but then I quite like reading fiction too. And it has just as much practical importance to me.

At least one other poster here is in the same position.

I do not have faith God does not exist, no matter how you trade on the ambiguity of the word.

I JUST DON'T CARE.

 

[articulett]

As long as you can't be certain that God doesn't exist, the absolute belief that God does not exist requires some faith. If you're 99.99 percent sure God doesn't exist, you still require 00.01 faith to be an atheist.

If you're 100% sure God (the intelligent Creator of the universe) doesn't exist then how did you determine that.

Whatever percentage my certainty level, I achieved it the exact same way I achieved my certainty regarding existence of fairies and Xenu. I'm equally certain about these nonexistent invisible immeasurable entities for the same reason I'm certain about the nonexistence of whatever it is you might call god.

How certain are you that they don't exist? 99.99? Whatever it is-- that's the certainty I feel about your invisible friend. How did you determine they don't exist? How much faith does that require of you? Same for your god... and for the same reasons. Really.

ETA-- oh, and what Hokulele said re: tooth fairy.

 

[Mashuna]

As long as you can't be certain that God doesn't exist, the absolute belief that God does not exist requires some faith. If you're 99.99 percent sure God doesn't exist, you still require 00.01 faith to be an atheist.

If you're 100% sure God (the intelligent Creator of the universe) doesn't exist then how did you determine that.

Still standard response #6 Doc.

You really need a new strawman. This one's getting all bedraggled.

 

[articulett]

As much as I might like to know what happened before the big bang, I am quite fine with not knowing. I understand that if it can be known, science will know it long before any guru-- that won't keep eons of gurus from making stuff up until we get those facts.

If I can't know what happened to start the big bang-- neither can anyone-- even those who claim divine insight on the topic... this includes you, DOC. Believing is not the same as knowing.

 

[Hokulele]

You really need a new strawman. This one's getting all bedraggled.

What, and start yet another 3000 post thread about some random "fact" that proves Christianity? How could you be so cruel?

 

[Darat]

And you know what we may find out that all the current theories and hypothesis are totally and utterly wrong and that Fred Hoyle was right all along! If we do it will, of course, be because of research and work by scientists rather than sitting around trying to stare at our navels waiting for a voice in our head to tell us what is The Truth™.

 

[DOC]

Are you 100% sure the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist? How did you determine that?

Given all the evidence I've have seen I'm about 99.999 percent sure the tooth fairy doesn't exist. Although I believe John Lennon once said he wouldn't rule it out that they existed.

And as far as the comparisons of God to a tooth fairy, thousands of martyrs haven't died for a tooth fairy, the tooth fairy doesn't have a famous Oxford Professor praising the historical evidence about it. The tooth fairy doesn't have the greatest selling book of all time written about him. The tooth fairy doesn't get thousands of people off drugs and turn peoples' life around.

 

[Mashuna]

Given all the evidence I've have seen I'm about 99.999 percent sure the tooth fairy doesn't exist. Although I believe John Lennon once said he wouldn't rule it out that they existed.

Given all the evidence I've have seen I'm about 99.999 percent sure God doesn't exist. Although I believe Richard Dawkins once said he wouldn't logically rule out God existing.

 

[Hokulele]

Given all the evidence I've have seen I'm about 99.999 percent sure the tooth fairy doesn't exist. Although I believe John Lennon once said he wouldn't rule it out that they existed.

How did you come to the conclusion that you are 99.999 percent sure the Tooth Fairy does not exist?

And as far as the comparisons of God to a tooth fairy, thousands of martyrs haven't died for a tooth fairy

So Tooth Fairy believers aren't suicidal. That isn't news.

the tooth fairy doesn't have a famous Oxford Professor praising the historical evidence about it.

So Oxford professors can be wrong. That isn't news.

The tooth fairy doesn't have the greatest selling book of all time written about him.

The Tooth Fairy is male? How do you know this?

(Ahem, argumentum ad populum is still a logical fallacy and does nothing, not one thing, to support your assertion regarding the existence of god. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Get this through your head. Popularity does not truth make.)

The tooth fairy doesn't get thousands of people off drugs and turn peoples' life around.

Hypnosis works for many people as well. Are you suggesting that god belief is simply a psychological trick?

 

[articulett]

Tons have died for Allah and assorted invisible entities and aliens. Scientologists claim great success at getting people off drugs with NarcAnon. When people get better they naturally attribute it to whatever magic they believe in-- winners of the lottery do the same you know.

So being willing to die, is not proof of any god,-- just human incredulity. And all the evidence you cite for your god could equally be applied to other gods or other belief systems. But I can see why you'd like it to be evidence for your god, DOC. All religions teacher their own believers how to convince themselves that their faith is the true one.

But, let's suppose your god is real-- how does this god explain the origins of the universe better than science? and what exactly is the evidence again. Just because a lot of people died for some belief, that is not evidence of that belief's veracity --much less evidence that their god exists and did something or other to bring this universe into existence. It really doesn't explain anything better than the "turtles all the way down" or the Matrix. We have no evidence for any kind of consciousness outside a material brain, remember? --And lots of evidence that humans mistake correlation for causation to the benefit of whatever gurus are indoctrinating them.

Your argument for your god is equally effective in arguing for the hijacker's god, as Foster Zygote pointed out. That makes it a very bad argument, indeed. And given that their prophet is a little more recent in history (and shows more evidence for being an actual historic person than Jesus), I don't think your creation story has any more going for it than their different story.

But lets pretend it does... so how did you god do his creation mumbo- jumbo and why does it look like all time space and matter exploded from a singularity around 14 billion years ago? How does your god hypothesis account for these observations... and how do all the other universe creation stories compare? Why didn't your god clue humans into these facts in any of his inspired texts? How did humans come to "know" of this story... and where are the first writings of this god inspired revelation?

 

[DOC]

...Then, based on your ignorance, you go after atheists who are "ignorant" only in the sense that you are saying things that they "don't know" because you are saying things that aren't true, and that science doesn't say.

Well the above has something to do with post #6, that someone has mentioned again.

List all the things I've said about science in this long thread that aren't true.

 

[Hokulele]

List all the things I've said about science in this long thread that aren't true.

OK!

Scientists as little as 100 years ago believed the universe was eternal. But they now believe the universe had a definite beginning -- much like Genesis believes the universe had a definite beginning.

Water is converted to steam by natural forces, but natural forces didn't exist at the time of the Big Bang.

So then I guess you believe we should trash science because it is based on the concept of cause and effect.

Just like they might have heard of abiogenesis but they don't know a leading (and from what I've seen, the main) scientific theory is that all life (plant and animals) came from the same bacteria organism.

Our calender is based on the birth of Christ.

pi mason,

rho mason,

virtual W basons,

This is just from this thread. There are more in your other "Most Atheists" thread.

 

[articulett]

Doc you are the only one claiming to "know" something for certain-- and your claims of knowledge are in direct conflict with the evidence. In fact you claim to KNOW things that no human could know.

And you pretend scientists are exhibiting this hubris (that you exhibit in spades) when they point out the evidence and what it suggests along with a theory that is, by far, the best explanation for our observations.

You offer nothing. You have no evidence. And you are the only one claiming to know some "higher truth". Moreover this "truth" is indistinguishable from all the myths humans have been confabulating over the eons as they are wont to do. The only explanatory power it has, it seems, is in your head.

When we follow the evidence instead of the myths we've been indoctrinated to believe, we get a much deeper understanding, and no magic man is evident anywhere --nor has one ever revealed the fantastic stuff that modern humans are uncovering daily.

 

[joobz]

As long as you can't be certain that God doesn't exist, the absolute belief that God does not exist requires some faith. If you're 99.99 percent sure God doesn't exist, you still require 00.01 faith to be an atheist.

I do not understand your numbers game here. Why does uncertainty require faith?

As Fiona has already said, you seem to be conflating various definitions of faith.
"I have faith that there is a god"
"I have faith that I'll enjoy this chicken dinner"

Do you believe these faiths are the same?
If so, does that not cheapen the concept of faith in god?
If not, then how can you say faith regarding an uncertainty is the same as faith in god?

 

[joobz]

Given all the evidence I've have seen I'm about 99.999 percent sure the tooth fairy doesn't exist. Although I believe John Lennon once said he wouldn't rule it out that they existed.

What is your evidence for this?
Don't teeth generally grow in to replace the lost baby teeth?
Isn't it strange that without a unified text to support the story, the stories regarding the tooth fairy are all extremely similar (as if guided by some external power).
No person has ever had to give thier life for the tooth fairy, demonstrating the purity and morality that is the Tooth Fairy.

And as far as the comparisons of God to a tooth fairy, thousands of martyrs haven't died for a tooth fairy,

This point has been addressed. dying for a cause doesn't mean the cause is right.

the tooth fairy doesn't have a famous Oxford Professor praising the historical evidence about it.

THe Tooth fairy has millions of parents telling the near same story regarding the tooth fairy. Millions of kids receive money in the morning for thier lost teeth.

The tooth fairy doesn't have the greatest selling book of all time written about him.

The tooth fairy doesn't need a book. It's purity and goodness supports itself without the need of a book.

The tooth fairy doesn't get thousands of people off drugs and turn peoples' life around.

The tooth fairy regrows teeth.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Tooth Fairy collects the detached teeth from under the pillow and replaces them with cold. hard cash; he/she does not cause the new teeth to grow into place. I wonder if DOC will hammer you for your gross, unforgiveable error which destroys your credibility?

That said, if the Tooth Fairy does regrow teeth then hats off to him/her. I would certainly be on drugs now if I'd had to go through life gumming my food.

 

[joobz]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Tooth Fairy collects the detached teeth from under the pillow and replaces them with cold. hard cash; he/she does not cause the new teeth to grow into place. I wonder if DOC will hammer you for your gross, unforgiveable error which destroys your credibility?

That said, if the Tooth Fairy does regrow teeth then hats off to him/her. I would certainly be on drugs now if I'd had to go through life gumming my food.

That is part of the mystery of the tooth fairy. The money is payment for the lost tooth but also with the promise of new teeth to come.

 

[jond]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Tooth Fairy collects the detached teeth from under the pillow and replaces them with cold. hard cash; he/she does not cause the new teeth to grow into place. I wonder if DOC will hammer you for your gross, unforgiveable error which destroys your credibility?

That said, if the Tooth Fairy does regrow teeth then hats off to him/her. I would certainly be on drugs now if I'd had to go through life gumming my food.

Can you prove the Tooth Fairy does not cause the new teeth to grow into place? Are you 100% certain? Sounds like faith to me.

Oh, and Doc: why do you keep ignoring Fiona's excellent posts?

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

List all the things I've said about science in this long thread that aren't true.

Hokulele's done a great job pointing out some of the things you’ve gotten wrong about science in this thread. I just want to emphasize two patently false notions you've repeated in spite of being repeatedly corrected, and which appear to be at the crux of your Big Bang ignorance...

Untruth 1:

Scientists have learned there was a definite beginning to time, space, and matter, which is similar to Genesis. etc. etc.

But they [scienctists --ed.] now believe the universe had a definite beginning -- much like Genesis believes the universe had a definite beginning.

Time is a thing that had a definite beginning according to science.

... and scientific facts such as all time, space, and matter had a definite finite beginning.

Untruth 2:

... but natural forces didn't exist at the time of the Big Bang.

...natural forces didn't exist at the time of the Big Bang.

Take those two false but oft repeated canards away, and what are you left with, DOC?


Just for kicks, a bonus flub...

Einstein for one. That's why he added his fudge factor. Because it was difficult for him to accept that the universe had a definite beginning.

Einstein had no problem accepting the Big Bang. The reason he put in his “fudge factor” was because there wasn’t a jot of evidence for an expanding universe when he first derived the equation.

 

[Marcus]

By all means, tell us about your Faith. How strong it is, where you aquired it. Your Faith that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist, that is. Since we all know from your instruction that Faith is required to disbelieve.