[Split]Physics of collision and collapse - split from: Offer to the Truth Movement: L

I recommend some basic physics lessons, man. A ton's a ton.

That is true but you people don't want to know how many tons were on every level of the towers. You haven't been asking about that for the last SIX YEARS.

At least I made a demonstration of how it matters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

The kinetic energy of the plane affected the tower in two different ways. Some energy punched the hole and did structural damage and some energy started the oscillation which the NIST says lasted 4 minutes. Since the building was designed to sway in the wind the energy of oscillation should not have caused damage. But how can that be computed without knowing the distribution of mass? So where have the EXPERTS explained how they separated these two energies to compute how much structural damage could have been done?

Plenty of people's physics looks worse than mine since they don't point out the obvious.

psik
 
That is true but you people don't want to know how many tons were on every level of the towers. You haven't been asking about that for the last SIX YEARS.

At least I made a demonstration of how it matters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

The kinetic energy of the plane affected the tower in two different ways. Some energy punched the hole and did structural damage and some energy started the oscillation which the NIST says lasted 4 minutes. Since the building was designed to sway in the wind the energy of oscillation should not have caused damage. But how can that be computed without knowing the distribution of mass? So where have the EXPERTS explained how they separated these two energies to compute how much structural damage could have been done?

Plenty of people's physics looks worse than mine since they don't point out the obvious.

psik
These masses can be estimated closely enough to show that collapse will continue.

Why don't you want to focus on what's important. How the building was constructed. Your argument proves you have no idea how the WTC were constructed and why this matters in discussing how they collapsed.

Instead of "scanning for key words". Why don't you read the damn thing and learn something?

Bolding for you, you seem to like that sort of thing.:D
 
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The kinetic energy of the plane affected the tower in two different ways. Some energy punched the hole and did structural damage and some energy started the oscillation which the NIST says lasted 4 minutes. Since the building was designed to sway in the wind the energy of oscillation should not have caused damage. But how can that be computed without knowing the distribution of mass? So where have the EXPERTS explained how they separated these two energies to compute how much structural damage could have been done?

Is damage from the oscillation necessary to explain the collapse?

Since it appeared that the collapse began from the site of the crash and the fires that followed it, wouldn't this damage be sufficient to explain the collapse?

In other words, shouldn't you be focusing on that instead of the straw man you are going on about now?
 
But doesn't the bottom have to be crushing the floors of the top? Where is the energy coming from to do that. Isn't the top going to run out of energy to do the crushing before the bottom runs out of levels?

Even Bazant admitted that some material had to fall down the sides from between the two masses. But with all of the vibration that had to be going on in this process how did the crushing mass remain centered and not fall off the side? Especially since we have pictures of the top of the south tower tilted.

That is why I did a search on "center of mass" in the NIST report. They never talk about the "center of mass" or "center of gravity" of that top block in the entire 10,000 pages. They just mention "center of mass" in that report about suspended ceilings. Those suspended ceilings must have been really important to the collapse. More important than the tons of steel and concrete on every level. But if we want to understand in detail what had to be happening while that top part progressively crushed everything below then why don't you want to know the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level? :D :D

psik

First of all, did you read just the one line of Mackey's post. It's clear you didn't read the whole thing. Go back and read the whole thing.

Second, you honestly expect that the building should have toppled over like a tree? You need to learn more physics. In order for a mass to topple over to the side, there must be a force pushing it to the side. Given the sheer size and mass of the collapsing section, there was no force great enough to topple it over.

The demolitions engineering company Protec, whose members know way more about structural physics than you do, wrote a comment about this for Brent Blanchard's paper. You can read the paper here. In it you can see that they say "With very few exceptions, a tall office building cannot be made to tip over like a tree". Please, if you disagree, then answer Pomeroo's question and tell us what special knowledge you have that these experts who actually work in this field do not.
 
But doesn't the bottom have to be crushing the floors of the top? Where is the energy coming from to do that. Isn't the top going to run out of energy to do the crushing before the bottom runs out of levels?
It depends, when we get into talking about modelling the collapse more accurately, we run into several problems. The largest issue is that there likely were no symmetrical full floor impacts. In each case the top of each tower rotated around a hinge and therefore the majority of collisions would be between columns and simple floor slabs. Modelling this however is far beyond me and may well have error margins too large for a useful result. Instead the best case scenario must be calculated, that of a single floor drop with symmetrical column impacts. In this case if the floor fails, the mass (slightly reduced as you note due to mass shedding) will then accelerate for another floor while also having an initial velocity. This will result in a larger mass impacting with more kinetic energy to the next floor down. In this simplified model, unless each floor can resist a significant fraction more energy, if the first floor fails, the building fails.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that in reality, the tops of the towers did rotate, and the truss to core/perimeter connections were so weak they had no hope whatsoever of resisting the load. The building was essentially unzipped by a series of pancaking floor slabs likely significantly 'rubbleized'.

psikeyhackr said:
Even Bazant admitted that some material had to fall down the sides from between the two masses. But with all of the vibration that had to be going on in this process how did the crushing mass remain centered and not fall off the side? Especially since we have pictures of the top of the south tower tilted.
The mass was likely doing most damage to the floor trusses and floor slabs, the design of the towers is such the outer walls would have restrained this until the trusses were severed, at which point they would fall outward. This is evident in many videos / the debris distribution.

psikeyhackr said:
But if we want to understand in detail what had to be happening while that top part progressively crushed everything below then why don't you want to know the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level? :D :D
I have absolutely no objection to your search for this information. If you feel it will help you analyse the collapse I think you're more than entitled to look for it. Have you submitted a FOIA request to NIST? I don't know whether you'd be best contacting them or the Port Authority. They both should have the documentation you require. I'd advise you the search fee is going to be quite high though because there's a bit of a difference between weights 'as-designed' and 'as-built' and 'as-of-2001'.
 
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But doesn't the bottom have to be crushing the floors of the top? Where is the energy coming from to do that. Isn't the top going to run out of energy to do the crushing before the bottom runs out of levels?

Of course it isn't. Every time a floor breaks, the system gains one floor's worth of energy from gravitational potential. With every failure it gains m g h, where h is the height of a single floor, about 3 meters, and m is growing steadily over time.

Nobody has proposed that the initial kinetic energy of the initial collapse is enough to destroy the entire building. Such a situation makes no sense.

Even Bazant admitted that some material had to fall down the sides from between the two masses. But with all of the vibration that had to be going on in this process how did the crushing mass remain centered and not fall off the side? Especially since we have pictures of the top of the south tower tilted.

Dr. Bazant not only admitted it, but he included it as a variable in the update paper with Drs. Benson, Le, and Greening. He shows that the lost material has very little effect on the collapse time, and almost no effect on the inevitability of total collapse.

The mass remains centered because there's no source of horizontal thrust. You'd have a multi-thousand ton mass moved over 100 feet horizontally in a matter of seconds? Where is that thrust to come from?

But if we want to understand in detail what had to be happening while that top part progressively crushed everything below then why don't you want to know the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level?

We already do, we've already explained it to you, this has to be the dozenth time. The NIST SAP2000 model contains this information to high accuracy and in gruesome detail. Any serious researcher and any determined casual researcher can access this information.

I also warn you that TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE seems destined to become the new "Realistice" at this rate. I trust that isn't your intent.
 
At least I made a demonstration of how it matters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

I have a suggestion on how to improve your model.

If your primary concern is to show the oscillation effects, then the impacting mass should penetrate the tower, rather than bouncing off it. Even if this is done without actually compromising the structure, I think you will find that it makes a dramatic impact on the oscillations you would observe.

Or, maybe it won't. Let's see a more accurate simulation, then we'll know.
 
That is true but you people don't want to know how many tons were on every level of the towers.

Again, why would it be relevant ? Certainly a change of a factor of 2 or even 5 won't change the outcome ? Or would you claim it would ?

The point is that such a mass coming down will not be stopped by man-made structures.

You haven't been asking about that for the last SIX YEARS.

Maybe because, unlike you, we understand that it is unimportant. You're the one claiming it is, with no justification.

The kinetic energy of the plane affected the tower in two different ways. Some energy punched the hole and did structural damage and some energy started the oscillation which the NIST says lasted 4 minutes. Since the building was designed to sway in the wind the energy of oscillation should not have caused damage. But how can that be computed without knowing the distribution of mass? So where have the EXPERTS explained how they separated these two energies to compute how much structural damage could have been done?

What does that have to do with anything ? The fire compounded the crash damage, causing the collapse.

Plenty of people's physics looks worse than mine since they don't point out the obvious.

Common sense < Reality.
 
I have a suggestion on how to improve your model.

If your primary concern is to show the oscillation effects, then the impacting mass should penetrate the tower, rather than bouncing off it. Even if this is done without actually compromising the structure, I think you will find that it makes a dramatic impact on the oscillations you would observe.

Or, maybe it won't. Let's see a more accurate simulation, then we'll know.

I thought about it and concluded that did not make sense in terms of demonstrating the effect. The weight of my tower ranges from 4 lb to 12 lb. The elbow joint I use for an impact mass is about 1 lb. so it is 8.3% to 25% of the total mass of my tower and would weigh more than portion of the tower it penetrated assuming I came up with a method of doing that. So its effect on the oscillation would be considerable.

The airliner was only 1/3rd of 1/10th of 1% the total mass of the WTC. Of course I can't say what it weighed compared to the levels it penetrated since the nitwits at the NIST have not seen fit, in their divine wisdom, to bestow that information upon us.

The primary concern is to demonstrate the change in the oscillation due to changes in the mass and its distribution in the tower to make it obvious that we should have been told the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every LEVEL of the WTC towers long ago. The quantity of steel in the impact zone is relevant to understanding if the fire could heat enough steel to weaken it in 56 MINUTES. I wasn't about to start a fire to demonstrate that however.

psik
 
R.Mackey said:
Of course it isn't. Every time a floor breaks, the system gains one floor's worth of energy from gravitational potential.

Two levels must break simultaneously. The bottom level of the falling mass and the top level of the stationary mass. Those two levels collapsing had to take energy out of the system. Since the falling mass would have to be moving faster than gravity would accelerate the stationary mass then momentum was lost getting the crushed level going. Then the next level is going to slow things down more. And the next, and the next,...

80 levels below versus 30 above and the lower ones must be heavier and stronger but you want to believe gravity is going to make up the difference though you haven't been demanding info about the quantity of steel and concrete on each level all of this time. BELIEF without DATA very smart.

That is why I say LEVELS not floors. It is all of those core and perimeter columns that must have broken in that scenario not the floors. And FEMA said the perimeter columns were only at 20% of their load capacity so they had plenty of extra strength that had to be broken.

But the NIST tells us that one plane had 5 tons of cargo and the other had 9. That must have made all of the difference. ROFLMAO

psik
 
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE
 
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Two levels must break simultaneously. The bottom level of the falling mass and the top level of the stationary mass. Those two levels collapsing had to take energy out of the system. Since the falling mass would have to be moving faster than gravity would accelerate the stationary mass then momentum was lost getting the crushed level going. Then the next level is going to slow things down more. And the next, and the next,...

80 levels below versus 30 above and the lower ones must be heavier and stronger but you want to believe gravity is going to make up the difference though you haven't been demanding info about the quantity of steel and concrete on each level all of this time. BELIEF without DATA very smart.

That is why I say LEVELS not floors. It is all of those core and perimeter columns that must have broken in that scenario not the floors. And FEMA said the perimeter columns were only at 20% of their load capacity so they had plenty of extra strength that had to be broken.

But the NIST tells us that one plane had 5 tons of cargo and the other had 9. That must have made all of the difference. ROFLMAO

psik
WRONG
 
I thought about it and concluded that did not make sense in terms of demonstrating the effect. The weight of my tower ranges from 4 lb to 12 lb. The elbow joint I use for an impact mass is about 1 lb. so it is 8.3% to 25% of the total mass of my tower and would weigh more than portion of the tower it penetrated assuming I came up with a method of doing that. So its effect on the oscillation would be considerable.

The airliner was only 1/3rd of 1/10th of 1% the total mass of the WTC. Of course I can't say what it weighed compared to the levels it penetrated since the nitwits at the NIST have not seen fit, in their divine wisdom, to bestow that information upon us.

The primary concern is to demonstrate the change in the oscillation due to changes in the mass and its distribution in the tower to make it obvious that we should have been told the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every LEVEL of the WTC towers long ago. The quantity of steel in the impact zone is relevant to understanding if the fire could heat enough steel to weaken it in 56 MINUTES. I wasn't about to start a fire to demonstrate that however.

psik
You were laughing at others, and you have no real working knowledge of physics. What is your background?
 
Two levels must break simultaneously. The bottom level of the falling mass and the top level of the stationary mass. Those two levels collapsing had to take energy out of the system.

No, both assertions are wrong. There is no requirement for two levels to break at the same time, and both videos show this is not the case at all.

The initial floor failure happened before there was any large-scale motion in the structure. Basically, the strength of the failure floor diminished below the static load requirement (see NIST for a vastly more detailed explanation). Then motion sets in, then the cascade takes place.

There is no reason why two floors would have simultaneously fallen below their static loads, but if this happened, we would instead get twice the initial gravitational potential release, and this would precipitate the collapse even faster.

The intial collapse is basically driven by thermal energy, not gravitational energy. Only a minor amount of downward creep contributed to the initial collapse. Thus, the initial collapse does not take energy out of the system in the method you propose.

Since the falling mass would have to be moving faster than gravity would accelerate the stationary mass then momentum was lost getting the crushed level going. Then the next level is going to slow things down more. And the next, and the next,...

I can't parse this first sentence. Restate, please.

Remember, with every floor that fails, you gain a new m g h amount of energy. The descending mass slows, but only a bit, and then it accelerates. You're concentrating on the slowing but ignoring the acceleration. That's why you're confused.

80 levels below versus 30 above and the lower ones must be heavier and stronger but you want to believe gravity is going to make up the difference though you haven't been demanding info about the quantity of steel and concrete on each level all of this time. BELIEF without DATA very smart.

Non sequitur. You can set up the equations using a wide variety of mass distributions, enough to bracket any reasonable amount of mass on any floors, and show that the collapse still happens as expected. You don't need precise knowledge (which, again, is available despite your claims to the contrary) to prove it will collapse. You only need this level of precision if you're trying to match the timing of collapse to within a few tenths of a second. See BLBG for details.

That is why I say LEVELS not floors. It is all of those core and perimeter columns that must have broken in that scenario not the floors. And FEMA said the perimeter columns were only at 20% of their load capacity so they had plenty of extra strength that had to be broken.

I say "floors and floor trusses," but whether you say potAto or potahto the result is the same. The impulse felt on collision is much higher than five times the static load, so the excess capacity in the perimeter columns is not enough to make a difference. Besides, the design reserve capacity in the core columns was a mere 1.67. There's no reason to cherry-pick the perimeter columns. That reserve also is diminished substantially when bracing mechanisms fail, i.e. the upper section suddenly becoming detached.

But the NIST tells us that one plane had 5 tons of cargo and the other had 9. That must have made all of the difference. ROFLMAO

Again, non sequitur. Nobody, including NIST, has claimed this was a significant factor. I find your complaints poorly reasoned and difficult to follow.
 
The airliner was only 1/3rd of 1/10th of 1% the total mass of the WTC. Of course I can't say what it weighed compared to the levels it penetrated since the nitwits at the NIST have not seen fit, in their divine wisdom, to bestow that information upon us.

What does the relative weight of the levels it penetrated have to do with anything?

Can you show me the physics formula where the weight of a material is more critical in a collision than factors like elasticity, resistance, and velocity? (Not the mass of the moving object, but the weight of the stationary object.)
 
psikeyhackr said:
Two levels must break simultaneously. The bottom level of the falling mass and the top level of the stationary mass. Those two levels collapsing had to take energy out of the system.
No, both assertions are wrong. There is no requirement for two levels to break at the same time, and both videos show this is not the case at all.

You can claim the assertion is wrong all you want. If the bottom of 29 stories of building comes down on top of 70+ stories there is going to be mutual destruction. The bottom of the falling portion is not going to remain in intact. Since they were only a few stories apart there wouldn't have been much difference in strength so the destruction should be about equal. But going down the lower portion gets stronger and the upper portion gets weaker.

But knowing the quantity of steel and concrete on every level would provide information on how much stronger. The designers didn't put the steel in place just for the fun of it.

psik
 
What does the relative weight of the levels it penetrated have to do with anything?

The weight of the levels relative to the plane. The NIST report says the south tower oscillated for four minutes after impact. I have not see where they specify how much the building moved laterally at the level of the impact. But elasticity AND MASS would be factors in that.

psik
 
You can claim the assertion is wrong all you want. If the bottom of 29 stories of building comes down on top of 70+ stories there is going to be mutual destruction. The bottom of the falling portion is not going to remain in intact. Since they were only a few stories apart there wouldn't have been much difference in strength so the destruction should be about equal. But going down the lower portion gets stronger and the upper portion gets weaker.

But knowing the quantity of steel and concrete on every level would provide information on how much stronger. The designers didn't put the steel in place just for the fun of it.

psik

No it does NOT, The shaped form and details of the steel and the connections determines the strength. Not the weight or mass. The floor trusses and their connection details to the core and perimeter columns were no different on the lower levels than the top most levels. A bar joist or truss floor system designed to support 100 PSF spanning 60 feet is going to fail no matter what 'level" it is on in a 110 story building when the top 29 levels fall upon it no matter if its crushed debris or intact floors. I provided you with the steel shape and connection details in a link (previous page)which you ignored. That link also included the weight per CF and placement details of the concrete. Look it up and stop being willfully ignorant.

http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixb.pdf
 
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