[Split]Physics of collision and collapse - split from: Offer to the Truth Movement: L

So the US is killing Iraqis over something that is physically impossible for an airliner to do
So you're a "no-planer"?

psikeyhackr said:
This country is full of stupid people too dumb to comprehend simple physics.
Other than you of course eh? :)

edit: At the end of your video you claim that the laws of physics do not change, which laws of physics would have to change to make NISTs analysis valid (in your eyes of course)?
 
Last edited:
Some comments on the video

To psikeyhackr, I've now reviewed your video and have some feedback for you. Overall I find this to be a reasonably well designed apparatus, much better than many we've seen before (rabbit cages, eggs taped together, etc.), but you are lacking in experimental design, and I think it's important to acknowledge your model's shortcomings.

What I mean by "lacking experimental design" is that the purpose of the experiment is never clearly stated, nor its conclusions. This is a perfectly good apparatus for demonstrating the pendulum effect for elastic structures, which your video shows nicely. I only have two criticisms at this level. One is that there is a splice in your load-bearing structure about six levels from the top, and this splice visibly introduces some nonlinearity into the behavior. The other is that you should also consider other distributions of mass and points of impact.

In terms of relating it to the WTC Towers, however, it isn't clear that the model is applicable at all. Several important questions need to be answered before we can apply any conclusions learned here with confidence:
  1. How did you scale the structural properties of the model? In particular, the modulus of elasticity of the support structure?
  2. What sort of connections exist between "columns" and "floors?" What contribution does this have to the stiffness, and is it scaleable?
  3. How was the impacting object scaled?
  4. How do you account for the difference in structural design, e.g. the absence of a core in your model?
  5. What damping behavior exists in your model, and how does this compare to the viscoelastic damping system used in the WTC?
  6. How do you relate your one-dimensional result to the three-dimensional situation in the WTC Towers, which include numerous oscillating modes not seen here?
  7. How do you account for the variation in both mass and strength as a function of height?
  8. How do you simulate the effect of damage at impact greatly changing the structural properties between the lower and upper sections?
  9. How do you plan to model plasticity, particularly near impact?

Also, I fail to see the connection between your discussion and damage at Hiroshima. The effects were completely different. I also note you picked basically the only structure to have survived relatively intact, doing so because of its location directly under the blast, rendering it less vulnerable to shockwave interactions with the ground and presenting its strongest side (compression) to the blast itself. Perhaps a more concise explanation of your objectives and conclusions would clear up this disconnect.

ETA: I also again suggest you read through Appendix K of NCSTAR1-5A, as it treats this exact same problem for oscillation of WTC 2, and does so with far more detail in both the equations and the measurements. I believe you'll find your observations here are totally consistent with this section.
 
Last edited:
Bazant's crush-down/crush-up is hilarious.

In an idealized collision, as described in Bazant Zhou, not only is it a non-physical assumption, you can use tested theory to quantitatively show how preposterous such an assumption is.

I had hoped to do so, myself, by now, but haven't even begun. You can search JREF and physorg for my posts, re the work of Ari-Gur, et. al., and some others. If you or somebody you know can do numerical work on a computer, you should be able to do this. Also, at one point, anyway, you could get code (or perhaps it was pseudo-code) from a university in Israel (Technion something or other, I think), associated with Ari-Gur. In other words, you may not even have to code anything, just provide proper inputs and interpret the output. (Hopefully, with pretty graphs. :) )

Well, actually, I think the right way to do this must involve modification of the algorithms such that horizontal movement is constrained every floor height. (Refinements would attempt further constraining, to reflect spandrels.) You should also confer with the experts to see what sorts of scaling corrections should be applied. To get a sense of this, see the Calladine and English paper, which I've also posted on.

At the end of the day, though, once a collapse gets going, nobody believes perfect, axial collisions of column segments will occur, so the more interesting problems of 1) whether a collapse can begin with enough 'oomph' to become unstoppable*, remains and 2) what a global collapse would actually look like, including computation of what pulverized building content plumes would look like.

The main benefit of quantitatively debunking Bazant Zhou is to attract serious interest in individuals capable of doing serious work on progressive collapse, to focus on the WTC cases. Even should this come to pass, though, this is not an easy problem, and I doubt there's really convincing evidence for any theory, at least in the initial stages of collapse, applied to a real-life skyscraper - even if it were only 20 stories.

You couldn't practically test your theory, that's for sure! You'd have to test on computer, and I don't think software and hardware limitations permit convincing tests.

There was a recent structures conference which has some presentations on progressive collapse, that I posted on. It's a fair guess that contacting them will be far more informative than posting here. Why don't you contact them, and get their input? Be sure to ask them how they test their theories. (I'm not a fan of theories that you can't test.)

If you do talk to any experts, please ask them what sort of a 'relaxation time' is a good estimate. A column which is too far off plumb will support 0 weight, so we can presume that impacts have, as an upper bound, on average approximately h * (1 - cos(15 degrees))/ h ~ 3.4% of the collapse height to load the base. The rest of the time, the base can unload.

What happens when unloading? I really don't know. Some of the strain energy not associated with the remaining static load will simply go into vertical oscillations. I expect that this will limit how much additional dynamic load can be absorbed by the base during the next storey's impact. What % gets lost through the ground, what % gets lost in internal states of excitation of the various floors, and what % gets lost as heat within the columns? I don't know, but that's something that an earthquake engineers should be able to help you estimate.

The more strain energy that can be dissipated from the columns, between storey impacts, the slower the collapse should be. A sufficiently precise analysis might thus be useful for discriminating between an assisted collapse (CD) and an unassisted collapse, without having to model fluid flows and pulverization. I'm thinking mostly of the early stages of collapse. In later stage, I expect you would need less collapse 'assistance' (assuming that's your goal) in the first place, and secondly approximations by Bazant, et.al., (in subsequent papers) such as "energy dissipated in the crushing front" are probably good approximations.


* IMO, this has to be the case once all column lines get disconnected at the same general height. The columns cross-sectional area in WTC scenarios in only ~ 2%, so columns will hit floors (not columns), floors lose that contest (ouch), etc.... A column with punctured floor elements will not topple just because it's 'traumatized' (I make fun of this notion by saying that I don't believe in 'boo' collapses), neither will the floors provide enough resistance to prevent being punctured and the collapse from accelerating.
 
Now I find Bazant's crush-down and crush-up hilarious.

Physics does not do mathematics. People do mathematics. So people have to figure out how to apply the mathematics CORRECTLY to the physics.

Suppose you tape a bottle cap to the business end of a hammer. If you then put an identical bottle cap on the sidewalk and smash the hammer down onto it, is only the bottle cap on the sidewalk going to get flattened.

When the falling portion of the tower comes into contact with the top of the lower portion they are going to engage in MUTUAL DESTRUCTION. The top is going to lose kinetic because of two levels being destroyed simultaneously. The levels of the upper portion get weaker and lighter going up while the levels of the lower portion get stronger and heavier going down. So where do your equations show that?

If a moving car hits a parked car does only the parked car get dented?
Physics do not do math, people do math. Cool

You are the physics wiz. What was your point?


You video is really an order of magnitude time 1000 less effective than NIST. With impacts of 1300 and 2093 pounds of TNT kinetic energy, and jet fuel equal in heat energy to 315 TONS of TNT, your failure to understand real physics is typical of most who lack experience. Where did you get your engineering degree? You need to redo most of the work. It was funny how many things you said that in the real world are the opposite due to factors you ignore. Why did you ignore so much. If you had taken physics in college you would be lol like you do so much at real work.

As others will point out you fail to grasp gravity's role in 9/11. But so do all the 9/11 truth false information specialist. You have company.

I think it is cool how you laugh at the far out truthers, but you are just as far out on a tangent you think is based on math and physics. Wait, that was not the physics that does math by itself.

The fact is your video as are you posts, was and are pointless. Please clarify your position, your beliefs and the point you are trying to make. I think you have assumed you have made a point, but fail to see you have not done anything.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/jomhome.asp

You should have your engineering work published, try at this location. http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/jomhome.asp What is your degree and what school did you graduate from. Looking forward to your Pulitzer Prize showing the world the WTC was an inside job or what ever you have postulated and backed up with pure no math done by physics efforts. good luck
 
Last edited:
When the falling portion of the tower comes into contact with the top of the lower portion they are going to engage in MUTUAL DESTRUCTION. The top is going to lose kinetic because of two levels being destroyed simultaneously. The levels of the upper portion get weaker and lighter going up while the levels of the lower portion get stronger and heavier going down. So where do your equations show that?

This would be all well and good if the building was on it's side. Why did you ignore that pesky force known as GRAVITY?
Destruction does not eliminate the mass that is still accelerating due to that pesky GRAVITY. In fact the mass of the lower part is ADDED to that accelerating mass.

Sad part is I think you know this and you're just trying to get attention. You know what they call people that do this? I do.
 
Truth in Advertising!

So you're a "no-planer"?

I am not sure what you mean by a "no-planer".

I refuse to talk to the "fake plane" people.

I am just saying that I doubt extremely much that an airliner could bring one of those buildings down in that amount of time and any experts claiming they did should have no trouble proving it, but must start by providing reliable data on the distribution of steel and concrete in the towers and not just some computer readable junk.

I don't see why that should be difficult for a couple of buildings that were among most famous in the world even before 9/11. I also do not see why anyone that believes that planes did bring the buildings down should have any objection to that information being made available. It is not like it could prove the planes could not bring the buildings down IF THAT IS WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

psik
 
This would be all well and good if the building was on it's side. Why did you ignore that pesky force known as GRAVITY?
Destruction does not eliminate the mass that is still accelerating due to that pesky GRAVITY. In fact the mass of the lower part is ADDED to that accelerating mass.

Sad part is I think you know this and you're just trying to get attention. You know what they call people that do this? I do.

I had already said this:
When the falling portion of the tower comes into contact with the top of the lower portion

I was under the impression that falling was caused by GRAVITY so it was implied.

Now even though the first level struck will get added to the falling mass the CONSERVATION OF MOMENTUM applies in addition to gravity. So the first level slows the falling mass down for two reasons. Energy lost to crush the steel that had been holding that falling mass for 28 years and conservation of momentum, but also the bottom level of the falling mass had to be crushed also resulting in an additional loss of kinetic energy. But of course there is another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that,...

So for the south tower there were 28 falling levels and 78 levels below to be crushed. So even if levels were mutually crushed on a one for one basis which mass is going to run out first? So explain why that didn't happen if you can.

It is truly sad when people who think they are intelligent can't figure out the obvious.

psik
 
I had already said this:


I was under the impression that falling was caused by GRAVITY so it was implied.

Now even though the first level struck will get added to the falling mass the CONSERVATION OF MOMENTUM applies in addition to gravity. So the first level slows the falling mass down for two reasons. Energy lost to crush the steel that had been holding that falling mass for 28 years and conservation of momentum, but also the bottom level of the falling mass had to be crushed also resulting in an additional loss of kinetic energy. But of course there is another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that,...

So for the south tower there were 28 falling levels and 78 levels below to be crushed. So even if levels were mutually crushed on a one for one basis which mass is going to run out first? So explain why that didn't happen if you can.

It is truly sad when people who think they are intelligent can't figure out the obvious.

psik

You understand the floor trusses braced the inner core to the external columns, right?
 
ISo for the south tower there were 28 falling levels and 78 levels below to be crushed. So even if levels were mutually crushed on a one for one basis which mass is going to run out first? So explain why that didn't happen if you can.

Certainly. Mass doesn't "run out" in the manner you propose. The crushed intervening levels retain their mass, and are the first to impact floors below. New impacts preferentially damage this growing layer of rubble, not the floors at the top of the ever-growing stack.

After ten floors or so fail in this way, the layer of rubble is more massive than the remaining portion of the upper block itself. Therefore, there is no "mutual one-for-one crushing" going on here. The loads experienced by the upper block and the impacted floor of the lower block are quite different.
 
I finally watched that video. I only have one observation.

It was said the buildings collapsed from a tiny little collision and, if I remember the wording correctly, "a little fire".

A little fire.

I wonder why, if it was such a little fire, that people ten or more stories ABOVE this fire suddenly had an urge to jump to their deaths.

Think about it for a moment: TO THEIR DEATHS. To their CERTAIN deaths.

Try to imagine how horrific a situation would have to be, before you would be willing to take such drastic action.

Now imagine that it is something so UNIVERSALLY horrific that many people took this step -- to choose death rather than experience one more second of the situation they were in.

Who among us wouldn't do ANYTHING to hang onto just one more second of life, unless that life had become absolutely unbearable?

I say, shame on anyone who has the arrogance to presume that this situation, which they safely watched on their TV's in the comfort of their own homes, was "not that bad".

You know who you are.
 
So for the south tower there were 28 falling levels and 78 levels below to be crushed. So even if levels were mutually crushed on a one for one basis which mass is going to run out first? So explain why that didn't happen if you can.

What do you mean, "run out"? Do you think mass just vanishes from existence?
 
Since they claim to be world renowned experts but can't even address the obviously important information I think they are full of crap.

The purpose of building that model and doing that demonstration was to show people that the experts weren't addressing the obvious. You people seem to expect everyone to believe in and accept AUTHORITY rather than understand a grammar school physics problem for themselves.

Bazant doing complicated math based on the assumption that bottom of the falling mass wouldn't be crushed by the top of mass supposedly being crushed. HILARIOUS!!! Greening dividing by 110 and averaging the entire mass of a skyscraper that had to be bottom heavy and ignoring the basements. WHAT A JOKE!

psik



Just asking questions, of course: You appear to be another kid who has never taken a physics course. Your near-total ignorance of science leads you to mock the efforts of real physicists, chemists, structural engineers, metallurgists, fire safety specialists, seismologists, and demolition experts. As a conspiracy liar, you are incapable of perceiving how ridiculous you look to rationalists. My question, one that I ask of various charlatans and know-nothings without any hope of receiving an answer, is: What do you know that all these adults who work in technical fields don't know? What is the source of this special knowledge?
 
Last edited:
Just asking questions, of course: You appear to be another kid who has never taken a physics course. Your near-total ignorance of science leads you to mock the efforts of real physicists, chemists, structural engineers, metallurgists, fire safety specialists, seismologists, and demolition experts. As a conspiracy liar, you are incapable of perceiving how ridiculous you look to rationalists. My question, one that I ask of various charlatans and know-nothings without any hope of receiving an answer, is: What do you know that all these adults who work in technical fields don't know? What is the source of this special knowledge?


:w2:

01001001 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01101101 01101111 01101110 00100000 01110011 01100101 01101110 01110011 01100101
 
Well the people who claim the planes brought down 1 and 2 have to explain what brought down 7 without the plane.

Of course they also need to explain why the NIST tells us the two towers had 200,000 tons of steel but never say the total amount of concrete. What about only using the term "center of mass" four times in 10,000 pages and only in a report about "suspended ceilings"? ROFLMAO

You geniuses are so LOGICAL for not asking the distribution of steel and concrete in the towers for SIX YEARS but then want to claim to say something about math, physics and logic. :duck:

It is so logical to not know if the data you put into your mathematical equations to simulate physics is as correct as possible. Oh sure, average the mass of the entire building by only dividing by the above ground floors even though the mass includes the basements. ROFL

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3667265&postcount=316

psik

Sounds like a gigantic argument from incredulity, to me.
 
If you or somebody you know can do numerical work on a computer, you should be able to do this. Also, at one point, anyway, you could get code (or perhaps it was pseudo-code) from a university in Israel (Technion something or other, I think), associated with Ari-Gur. In other words, you may not even have to code anything, just provide proper inputs and interpret the output. (Hopefully, with pretty graphs. :) )


Sorry, I should have thought about this a little more before posting (plus reviewed the paper). Probably (I don't want to look it up, now) Ari Gur, et. al., assumed a rigid striking mass, so modification to allow for a non-rigid striking mass is probably non-trivial. Maybe doing the analysis representing the striking mass as a series of rigid masses affixed to rods, each with mass and other characteristics relevant to the WTC/BZ scenario, is not too hard. Even if this is so, just taking the existing code and plugging in values is too simple a picture.

Instead, you might be able to just plug in values to existing code where the impacting mass is taken from BZ (or corrected value from gurich), and solutions are obtained for various lengths of rods, corresponding to variable numbers of floors. (This would not involve horizontal constraints, except the expected one at the very bottom.) You could then quantitatively show (via graphing the computed results) the effects of having a longer rod (=> more stories engaged in resisting the collapse).
 
Now even though the first level struck will get added to the falling mass the CONSERVATION OF MOMENTUM applies in addition to gravity. So the first level slows the falling mass down for two reasons. Energy lost to crush the steel that had been holding that falling mass for 28 years and conservation of momentum

You do understand that the mass wasn't actually moving for those 28 years, right ?

But of course there is another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that, and another level down below that,...

Considering the energy such a mass can conjure up in the space between two floors, I wouldn't be so sure if I were you.

So for the south tower there were 28 falling levels and 78 levels below to be crushed. So even if levels were mutually crushed on a one for one basis which mass is going to run out first?

I recommend some basic physics lessons, man. A ton's a ton.
 
Certainly. Mass doesn't "run out" in the manner you propose.

But doesn't the bottom have to be crushing the floors of the top? Where is the energy coming from to do that. Isn't the top going to run out of energy to do the crushing before the bottom runs out of levels?

Even Bazant admitted that some material had to fall down the sides from between the two masses. But with all of the vibration that had to be going on in this process how did the crushing mass remain centered and not fall off the side? Especially since we have pictures of the top of the south tower tilted.

That is why I did a search on "center of mass" in the NIST report. They never talk about the "center of mass" or "center of gravity" of that top block in the entire 10,000 pages. They just mention "center of mass" in that report about suspended ceilings. Those suspended ceilings must have been really important to the collapse. More important than the tons of steel and concrete on every level. But if we want to understand in detail what had to be happening while that top part progressively crushed everything below then why don't you want to know the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level? :D :D

psik
 

Back
Top Bottom