Siesmic Evidence Proves Inside Job?

Mark Roberts, the paper still stands.

You are mistaken. No one, including you, has shown the radar crash time of AA Flt 11 to be in error, which occurred ~10 seconds after the NIST seismic time (the other event), and to say the Hlava video overturned this radar crash time is absurd (Hlava is based in fraud and also lost in obscurity).

This is my last word to you on this...and also that 9/11 WAS an inside job.

Translation.

"Even though my paper has been proven to be absolute rubbish and 100% incorrect I will keep it on line and hopefully fool others into believing I know what I am talking about. I do so because I like to feel important and will never accept that I am wrong.I could not care less.

My last word on this matter, is that I could not care less for the truth because I know that if I keeping saying 911 was an inside job people will give me the attention I desperately crave."
 
Mark Roberts, the paper still stands.

You are mistaken. No one, including you, has shown the radar crash time of AA Flt 11 to be in error, which occurred ~10 seconds after the NIST seismic time (the other event), and to say the Hlava video overturned this radar crash time is absurd (Hlava is based in fraud and also lost in obscurity).

This is my last word to you on this...and also that 9/11 WAS an inside job.



So, your blatant errors have been corrected and you blindly refuse to acknowledge them. The overwhelming stupidity animating your evil movement has consigned it to the dustbin of history.
 
Well, if repeating something over and over and over and over again DOES indeed change something from false to true, then 911 certainly WAS an inside job.
 
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Mackey is wrong...

So, your blatant errors have been corrected and you blindly refuse to acknowledge them. The overwhelming stupidity animating your evil movement has consigned it to the dustbin of history.


Mackey and anyone who agrees with him on this point is wrong.

Mackey provides "fallacious debunking" by writing absurd misinformation about Ross' and my paper in regards to the definition of seismic "origin time" on page 79 in his work:
http://www.jod911.com/drg_nist_review_1_0.pdf

Mackey writes:
"As it turns out, the seismic event times quoted by Ross and Furlong are inaccurate. Returning to the November 2001 Vibration Data article <111>, Table 1 on page 5 lists the same times as Ross and Furlong, but it lists them as the origin times. This is a critical detail. The “origin time” refers to the start time of an individual seismic record, and not the time of an event located within that record precise to the second, as they assumed."

This is an incorrect definition of seismic "origin time"; I posted the following at JREF that explains from authorities the exact definition, which refutes this gross error:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3400115#post3400115

The correct definition for the "origin time" of a seismic event is exactly that: the precise time that an earthquake rupture occurs.

Origin time is simple to understand: It is what it is.

Mackey responded to my post with another attempt to turn the truth "on its head", so I responded again with this:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3400485#post3400485

To repeat, "the time of origin" for a seismic event is the time the actual rupture occurs (and in UTC, down to the second).

Read what the US Geological Survey states as the definition of the origin time of a seismic event:
http://quake.usgs.gov/recenteqs/glossary.html
Time and Date
"We indicate the date and time when the earthquake initiates rupture, which is known as the "origin" time. Note that large earthquakes can continue rupturing for many 10's of seconds. On the individual text page for each earthquake we provide time in UTC (Coordinated Universal Time)."

This does not include any run-up time provided on a seismic graph before the seismic event occurs as Mackey claims, and the above USGS definition is held by everyone in the science of seismology.

The seismic origin time compared to the radar time is what this is about:
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/ExplosionInTowerBeforeJetHitByFurlongAndRoss.pdf

No one has yet shown the radar time for AA Flt 11 or the seismic origin time for the same event (as accepted by NIST) to be inaccurate. The fact is AA Flt 11 impacted WTC1 at 8:46:40, while the seismic origin time for the supposedly same event is 8:46:30 (plus or minus one second).

That's a 10-second UTC unexplained difference.
 

Why are you here? Why are you not getting your paper submitted and published in scientific journals? Why are you not presenting your "evidence" to the authorities?

Why have you not written a best selling book? Why,with all your "evidence" have you failed to do ANYTHING other than post winging cry baby posts on internet froums?

Why is eveybody laughing at you and your trashy paper?

Why do you keeping spewing the same crap over and over again?

Why oh why will you not get it through your head, your paper is trash, you are completly and utterly wrong and you will never be the saviour of humanity?

Oh wait.........................
 
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You still will not admit you are wrong on such an obvious, simple mistake...but this is your problem, not mine.

No sweat. Looks like we'll have to leave it at that.

BTW, I appreciate the way you have been handling that thread you have going now. It is very well done:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111647

show where he is wrong on this graph craig
0305911-graph2-lg.jpg
 
Hmmm, so there is the proposition that the supposed explosives which brought down the WTC towers registered on seismographs and yet the sound of said explosives were not recorded on even one of the many videos of the collapses? Seems rather contradictory to me.
 
Now guys, don't be confused.

On this matter of "time of origin" in seismology, the correct definition is the time of rupture for the event (don't take my word for it; look it up yourself).

And I can understand why you might think you have figured out the difference in the times by looking at the lead time on the graph paper before an event, but that still does not make it correct.

However, I want you to know that I have been reading a lot of what has been put up here at JREF, especially Mackey's thread of late that I mentioned (and also thanks to gumboot's excellent hard work on his 115 answers to Griffin).

I know the times of disparity in the paper I wrote are real and unexplained, but I am not too happy with the title anymore, as I am not convinced any longer that it was an inside job.

There was some new information I ran across over at physorgforum around the beginning of this year about the energy transmitted from the crash of the plane into WTC1's steel core columns that was sent all the way to the ground (and then bounced back / reverberated) with tremendous power and at a very high rate of speed...this was based upon recent, good scientific facts presented at the time.

This may have been the reason why there were "explosions" experienced down there in the basement levels. Energy transmitted through steel happens very quickly and with tremendous power.

I know that the fuel did travel down and burn people. That is a fact. But explosions down there before the crash as reported by Rodriguez and others has always been a mystery to me. What if the energy transference happened so quickly and powerfully, AND THEN the crash from above was heard by those in the basement levels (the speed of sound being slower in this instance)?

So, this may be the answer to this mystery regarding this extraordinary event.

I have been suspicious of suspicious behavior all along (Bush et al) surrounding 9/11, and WTC7 has always been the most suspicious of all. But I am not so sure about it anymore either. It definitely looks like a CD, but that does not mean it is...and this is my current thinking on it.

Also, the work here at JREF has been excellent in facts presented, as I have been looking at your data over the last few months (and the other sites you point to).

Last night I pivoted off of gumboot's thread on his 115 answers to Griffin (gumboot is unbelievable, BTW, in his work) and went here and there and finally found the download of the FBI file from the Massoui trial (I may have misspelled that name but who cares) from I believe it was 911myths (pardon me if I have the site wrong too but it doesn't matter; I am kind of tired right now). My point is that FBI flash presentation gave me enough evidence to know for sure that MIHOP is not true. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda definitely were behind it. Now you may be laughing because you have always thought this, but it has not been so clear on the "other side of fence".

Mackey's approach is best. Be a gentleman but stick to the facts and nothing but.

In addition, what I have read here at JREF from various threads is undeniable facts AND logic that LIHOP, in the final analysis, doesn't seem to make much sense logically either.

I still have unresolved questions but they don't seem to matter when all of a sudden both MIHOP and LIHOP are no longer viable in my thinking anymore.

So don't be confused as I said at the beginning of this post. I meant what I said about Ryan Mackey. He is wrong about the seismological definition of "time of origin", but this pales in comparison to the way he has shown himself to be of late, one who is fair, logical, and almost like a peacemaker in his approach to the TM...with all of this centered on keeping to the topic / question one---at---a---time.

My hats off to him for that, and he, gumboot, and basically all of you JREF'ers have my thanks for your effort that has been par excellence due primarily to your perseverance to the truth and the facts.

If I were you I would be careful of making derogatory remarks about the truth movement, because you guys seem to be it now (to me). :)
 
boy, you've been so schooled, that you come back to be flogged again, showing yet again,m the ignorance of the truth movement.

love the to torture yourself?
 
Please don't personalise comments in the thread, and keep it civil, everbody
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero
 
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Now guys, don't be confused.

On this matter of "time of origin" in seismology, the correct definition is the time of rupture for the event (don't take my word for it; look it up yourself).

And I can understand why you might think you have figured out the difference in the times by looking at the lead time on the graph paper before an event, but that still does not make it correct.

However, I want you to know that I have been reading a lot of what has been put up here at JREF, especially Mackey's thread of late that I mentioned (and also thanks to gumboot's excellent hard work on his 115 answers to Griffin).

I know the times of disparity in the paper I wrote are real and unexplained, but I am not too happy with the title anymore, as I am not convinced any longer that it was an inside job.

There was some new information I ran across over at physorgforum around the beginning of this year about the energy transmitted from the crash of the plane into WTC1's steel core columns that was sent all the way to the ground (and then bounced back / reverberated) with tremendous power and at a very high rate of speed...this was based upon recent, good scientific facts presented at the time.

This may have been the reason why there were "explosions" experienced down there in the basement levels. Energy transmitted through steel happens very quickly and with tremendous power.

I know that the fuel did travel down and burn people. That is a fact. But explosions down there before the crash as reported by Rodriguez and others has always been a mystery to me. What if the energy transference happened so quickly and powerfully, AND THEN the crash from above was heard by those in the basement levels (the speed of sound being slower in this instance)?

So, this may be the answer to this mystery regarding this extraordinary event.

I have been suspicious of suspicious behavior all along (Bush et al) surrounding 9/11, and WTC7 has always been the most suspicious of all. But I am not so sure about it anymore either. It definitely looks like a CD, but that does not mean it is...and this is my current thinking on it.

Also, the work here at JREF has been excellent in facts presented, as I have been looking at your data over the last few months (and the other sites you point to).

Last night I pivoted off of gumboot's thread on his 115 answers to Griffin (gumboot is unbelievable, BTW, in his work) and went here and there and finally found the download of the FBI file from the Massoui trial (I may have misspelled that name but who cares) from I believe it was 911myths (pardon me if I have the site wrong too but it doesn't matter; I am kind of tired right now). My point is that FBI flash presentation gave me enough evidence to know for sure that MIHOP is not true. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda definitely were behind it. Now you may be laughing because you have always thought this, but it has not been so clear on the "other side of fence".

Mackey's approach is best. Be a gentleman but stick to the facts and nothing but.

In addition, what I have read here at JREF from various threads is undeniable facts AND logic that LIHOP, in the final analysis, doesn't seem to make much sense logically either.

I still have unresolved questions but they don't seem to matter when all of a sudden both MIHOP and LIHOP are no longer viable in my thinking anymore.

So don't be confused as I said at the beginning of this post. I meant what I said about Ryan Mackey. He is wrong about the seismological definition of "time of origin", but this pales in comparison to the way he has shown himself to be of late, one who is fair, logical, and almost like a peacemaker in his approach to the TM...with all of this centered on keeping to the topic / question one---at---a---time.

My hats off to him for that, and he, gumboot, and basically all of you JREF'ers have my thanks for your effort that has been par excellence due primarily to your perseverance to the truth and the facts.

If I were you I would be careful of making derogatory remarks about the truth movement, because you guys seem to be it now (to me). :)

I must say that I'm more than a bit surprised at this post. I've followed your posts here and (as a lurker) over at physorg. Quite the turnaround, I must say. Hats off to you as well.

I'm still curious as to how Mackey is wrong though (he could well be). The chart that poster A W Smith presented seems to indicate he's correct. Can you elaborate as to that chart? Is it just a simple misunderstanding going on?
 
boy, you've been so schooled, that you come back to be flogged again, showing yet again,m the ignorance of the truth movement.

love the to torture yourself?

Don't be unfair, the only people to be scorned are those that are so consistent in a viewpoint that they fail to admit to it's faults.
 
Now guys, don't be confused.

I agree -- this is a good post.

It's also important to keep in mind that everyone makes mistakes, even me. So, fine, let's reopen this.

On this matter of "time of origin" in seismology, the correct definition is the time of rupture for the event (don't take my word for it; look it up yourself).

And I can understand why you might think you have figured out the difference in the times by looking at the lead time on the graph paper before an event, but that still does not make it correct.

The flexible use of "time of origin" has always bothered me. I have indeed seen "origin time" used to mean the time of the initiating event, although that doesn't seem to fit the graphs in this particular case. The origin times on the table provided by LDEO happen to match the "origin time" (i.e. the intersection of axes) on the figures, as shown in the graph I linked and was reprinted above. However, I've never been fully comfortable with the explanation of why LDEO chose that intersection of coordinates.

One possibility is that the two are the same, and the intervening ~16 seconds represents the propagation time from the location of the event to the LDEO seismometer. Seismic waves travel at about 5 km/s in bedrock, so this means a 90 km or about 50 mile distance from the World Trade Center to LDEO. That turns out not to be a good fit, since Palisades NY is only about 16 miles from lower Manhattan. It is possible the sensor location was further out, but this is speculation.

We also have to be a little bit careful because LDEO may have already put a time offset into their plots. We don't know whether those plots were raw data, or translated to account for propagation time, which I'm eyeballing at about five seconds. Unless we're actually looking at the drum it's not going to be obvious.

If we go through this again and now find a discrepancy of about ten seconds, it is possible this is a combination of graphical offset (about sixteen seconds) and propagation correction (about five seconds), giving us the difference (eleven seconds). There are several possibilities.

Yet another possible confound is the intervening material. I mentioned above that propagation speed through bedrock was 5 km/s. Well, for loose earth, it's lower, more like 1.6 km/s. If the signal somehow went through earth rather than bedrock to LDEO, then the propagation time would be closer to 16 seconds. I don't think this is what happened, but one would have to be a geologist to answer this.

However, I want you to know that I have been reading a lot of what has been put up here at JREF, especially Mackey's thread of late that I mentioned (and also thanks to gumboot's excellent hard work on his 115 answers to Griffin).

I know the times of disparity in the paper I wrote are real and unexplained, but I am not too happy with the title anymore, as I am not convinced any longer that it was an inside job.

For me, the ultimate proof that there was no paired explosive event was the fact that, on the seismograph, there's only one event. Had there been explosives and a plane impact, there would have been two. This observation is totally independent of any timing mismatch.

So walking through the discrepancy is still interesting and worthwhile, but we know there weren't two events. Other corroborating information also exists, e.g. the Hlava video, and in the case of WTC 2, numerous videos and live reports at the moment of impact. We can be utterly certain that no explosion predated the impact at WTC 2. The fact that we see a similar timing anomaly at WTC 2 and WTC 1 suggests both of them are due to some kind of misunderstanding.

There was some new information I ran across over at physorgforum around the beginning of this year about the energy transmitted from the crash of the plane into WTC1's steel core columns that was sent all the way to the ground (and then bounced back / reverberated) with tremendous power and at a very high rate of speed...this was based upon recent, good scientific facts presented at the time.

This may have been the reason why there were "explosions" experienced down there in the basement levels. Energy transmitted through steel happens very quickly and with tremendous power.

I know that the fuel did travel down and burn people. That is a fact. But explosions down there before the crash as reported by Rodriguez and others has always been a mystery to me. What if the energy transference happened so quickly and powerfully, AND THEN the crash from above was heard by those in the basement levels (the speed of sound being slower in this instance)?

So, this may be the answer to this mystery regarding this extraordinary event.

I agree with this assessment. The other strong possibility is that Mr. Rodriguez heard something else, like elevators falling into the basement, and never heard the impact at all. There were other people, away from Mr. Rodriguez's location, who did not hear the impact.

So don't be confused as I said at the beginning of this post. I meant what I said about Ryan Mackey. He is wrong about the seismological definition of "time of origin", but this pales in comparison to the way he has shown himself to be of late, one who is fair, logical, and almost like a peacemaker in his approach to the TM...with all of this centered on keeping to the topic / question one---at---a---time.

And to reciprocate, if it turns out I've made a mistake -- particularly in my whitepaper -- I will fix it. That's a promise.

I received a PM from Kent1 -- not part of the Truth Movement -- reminding me that the actual LDEO impact times as cited by NIST (let's drop the 9/11 Commission for now, since it's less precise all round) are 8:46:29 for WTC 1 impact and 9:02:57 for WTC 2. This appears in Table 3-1 of NCSTAR1-5A on Page 22. NIST was able to correlate these to news broadcast images to an accuracy of ~ 2 seconds. Therefore, the times I listed above are incorrect, at least at the point of origin. They may represent the times the signals were received by LDEO, but the times in this paragraph should be treated as the baseline.

If it will help, I can contact LDEO to try to get the final answer. They're probably bored to death of this topic by now, but they should have no particular problem talking to me. I've outlined several possible sources of the discrepancy, any one of which could explain it, and are all reasonable.
 
Okay, let's grunge through this

I'm actually surprised at how long it's been since I've looked at this in depth. Also, the "Updated Version III" of the whitepaper that started it all looks quite a bit different than the Version II that I originally read.

1. Definitions

Let's use "origin time" to exclusively mean the time at which the seismic event actually started. Time to propagate to any sensor is not included in this time, so any given sensed time will be later than the origin time.

2. Background

NIST reports on impact times as determined from video of the events, and compares these to the LDEO results, stating that the revised LDEO origin time is 8:46:29 for WTC 1 and 9:02:57 for WTC 2. These measurements have shifted slightly (~ 3 seconds) from earlier analyses. NIST also reports these measurements are solid to +/- 1 second and 2 seconds respectively, on page 23 of NCSTAR1-5A. Furthermore, NIST reports that LDEO is 21 miles from the impact site, not 16 miles as I estimated above.

It is not yet entirely clear how LDEO estimated these times, given that the apparent seismic signal at their location was later, 8:46:43 and 9:03:10 respectively, but we must accept that they corrected for propagation time, and their computed origin times happen to correspond well with the video timing of the events as established by NIST.

The 9/11 Commission Report cites a time of 8:46:40 for WTC 1 on Page 285, and 9:03:11 for WTC 2 on Page 293, both in Chapter 9. Let's accept that both of these times are wrong, 11 seconds high for WTC 1 and 14 seconds high for WTC 2. What remains is trying to explain why these times are wrong.

3. Examining the 9/11 Commission

In the 9/11 Commission Report, footnotes 30 and 79 of Chapter 9 are given for the two passages above. Relevant parts of these notes read as follows:

9/11 Commission Report pg. 543 said:
30. For the exact time of impact, see FAA analysis of American 11 radar returns and Commission analysis of FAA radar data and air traffic control software logic.
9/11 Commission Report pg. 546 said:
79. For the time of impact, see FAA analysis of United Airlines Flight 175 radar returns and Commission analysis of FAA radar data and air traffic control software logic.

So the 9/11 Commission is the outlier, and it isn't going by seismic signals at all. It appears the offset in the radar data just happens to correspond to the uncorrected offset in the seismic data -- about 12 seconds average here, versus about 16 seconds in the seismic. That's an unusual coincidence, and that's what I homed in on before.

4. Raw Radar Data

We can go to the original radar data in the NTSB reports, which are archived for American 11 and United 175. The impact termination is shown in Figure 2 of each report. The figures are different, and Figure 2 of the AA-11 report is the more valuable, because it shows individual points, whereas the curve in the UA-175 report is smoothed.

Looking at Figure 2 of the AA-11 report, we see that there are no radar returns after approximately 8:46:10, which showed the aircraft at an altitude of approximately 1,800 feet. There is one final point at 8:46:40, and that is what the Commission apparently used, but that is at altitude zero. The points leading up to 8:46:10 show nontrivial scatter in the data, and occasionally unmistakable outliers as well. It also seems to indicate an average descent rate of nearly 4,000 feet per minute, or about 65 feet per second.

5. Discussion

Now recall that AA-11 did not impact at zero altitude. It hit on the 97th floor, or approximately 1,000 feet of altitude. Using our estimate of 65 feet per second, this is 800 feet below or about 13 seconds after the next-to-last reading. This gives us a radar impact estimate of 8:26:23, not 8:26:40. I must point out, however, that the graph is not the easiest to read, and I would estimate the time of sweep is +/- 3 seconds, altitude +/- 200 feet, so our final estimate is perhaps +/- 7 seconds. However, this time coincides nicely with the NIST result.

What about the 8:26:40 measurement? Well, it's at zero altitude, so it can't be our bird unless it's an artificially low reading. But if it's not our bird, what could it be? I can think of several possibilities. In particular, this is primary radar and is basically a "blip" stronger than background returned to the receiver. Aircraft are not the only things that send traces. I speculate that the final return wasn't from the aircraft at all, but instead from the huge cloud of debris that emerged after impact -- pieces of aircraft, aluminum cladding from WTC 1, and the thermal bubble, all spreading to create a much larger and brighter radar reflector than the aircraft itself. This could, perhaps, be seen well down in the clutter whereas the smaller aircraft signal was lost before impact.

While I like this hypothesis, I must admit that it is also possible that the 8:46:40 radar blip is nothing but a phantom return generated somewhere in software. The fact that it intersects at exactly 0 altitude is suspicious.

The radar return graph for UA-175 is not as detailed, and unfortunately I cannot replicate this analysis for it as a result, but we may assume that something similar could have happened there as well. UA-175 struck at a slightly lower altitude but still about 800 feet above ground level, so a similar artifact may have occurred.

6. Findings

So, in summary, my findings are as follows:

  1. The LDEO origin time (time of actual seismic event) does appear to be 8:46:29 and 9:02:57, not a slightly later number that corresponds to the 9/11 Commission Report. I therefore must update my whitepaper.
  2. The 9/11 Commission Report time is wrong. The strongest evidence for this is the NIST analysis of photographic records, which confirms finding 1. above and conflicts with the Commission regardless of seismic data interpretation.
  3. The discrepancy in the Commission appears to be solely based on radar, not seismic results.
  4. While we do not fully understand the delay between origin time and graphical time of arrival in the LDEO data, we believe it is due to seismic propagation between origin point and seismograph. Followup is needed to confirm this hypothesis.
  5. The discrepancy in the Commission happens to be similar to the delay mentioned in finding 4. above, but this appears to be coincidence. It is this coincidence that I focused on, incorrectly, in previous analyses.
  6. We further hypothesize that the Commission discrepancy, at least for WTC 1, can be traced to insufficient analysis of primary radar data. The final radar return time was used as the impact time, and this appears to be too simplistic, as we have no reason to believe the final return was in fact coming from an intact aircraft.
  7. More careful analysis of the final few radar returns for AA-11 gives us an impact estimate of 8:46:23 +/- 7 seconds, which is consistent with NIST and the LDEO origin time, and inconsistent with the Commission. All of our findings are therefore self-consistent.
  8. We cannot confirm the above radar argument also applies to UA-175, though we have reason to believe a similar artifact occurred. If data for UA-175 with individual radar returns become available, this should be verified.
I think it all fits together nicely now. Again, we should still verify the ~16 second propagation time from the WTC to LDEO, but that appears to be the result that they calculated, so I'm comfortable with it until proven otherwise.

DISCLAIMER: The above is my opinion only and does not reflect the position of any agency, public or private. All work done with my own materials on my own time. Measure twice, cut once.
 
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