Do fundamentalist Mormans abuse children?

[Zygar]

I still say there is a strong possibility when all is said and done, the biggest abuser here will be the state, CPS, etc.

I've seen it before. We shall see I guess.

And if anyone hasn't been abused, I am sure CPS will get right to work helping them to "recover" the memories. Ha.

At least they didn't kill them all and then try to justify it by saying they heard someone was being abused.

I've known a few women who have escaped from the FLDS church and its relatives. The truth is that the children are raised like it's still 1850. In many of the FLDS cities, they wholly own the government of the city/county. This makes it very difficult for law enforcement to get any sort of subpeona against them, or to even get information on the abuses that occur.

One teenager calls and this is how they react??? One teenager calls in New York City and child services doesn't show up for a month.

They are abused, but they are so cut off from society that reporting it is nearly impossible. People are murdered for ratting on polygamist groups like this. For a good reference of what sort of violence comes of these clans, look into the life of Ervil LeBaron.

Something else was going on here. I don't trust the government in these situations at all. Last time they tried to save the children in a Texas compound, they burned them to death.

I'll give you that. Texas isn't exactly a shining star, either.

It must be just now hitting the national news cycles. It's been in the papers for about three days here. Workers are saying that it is pretty certain that there has been massive abuse to hundreds of children.

To their credit, the FLDS believers didn't resist and cause another tragedy like at Waco. That doesn't absolve them of blame.

The fact is, they are used to the system protecting them. They are probably too shocked by the situation to have fought back.

And the "age of consent" thing is just a red herring. Being forced (or brainwashed) into marriage at any age is wrong in my playbook.

That's all fine and dandy, but the only way to get to groups like this is via the law. That's why the single phone call was such a big deal. It provided specific information about a specific crime.

 

[varwoche]

Well, just on the face of it, this looks just like another witch hunt and gross over reaction by the state.

Based on...?

Kinda reminds me of the ridiculous daycare abuse witchunts of the past.

Based on...?

I saw the people walking out, and at first impression I will say baloney.

Well, you seem to have it all figured out here. Based on pure speculation it appears.

These people are off doing what they want to do. And yes, they are religious extremist. But so what?

If they are molesting children, that's what.

This I feel will just turn out to be a bunch of nothing. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have that feeling.

Color me unsurprised that you are posting yet another apology for child molestation, based on crevice-derived speculation no less.

 

[BPSCG]

From all the reports I hear of sects like this, women are effectively slaves - their father has absolute control over their life until they are married to whatever older man they've been promised to (no say for them in the matter), at which point their husband has absolute control over their life. Their purpose is pretty much to do the housework, be the husband's sex doll, and pump out babies. Even if their actions seem consentual, you have to remember that this is the only life they know - they're often not allowed to find out that in the big world outside, women have rights.

You talk like this is something bad...

 

[The Painter]

If they are molesting children, that's what.

That is a real big "if".For the Feds to raid someone's private property it should be based on evidence not speculation. As screwed up as these religious fanatics may be, they still have rights.

 

[qayak]

In answer to the question posed by the OP: All fundamentalist, and all moderates, of any religion, abuse children.

 

[Zygar]

In answer to the question posed by the OP: All fundamentalist, and all moderates, of any religion, abuse children.

Yeah, all humans abuse children. No matter what you teach them, someone else thinks it's the wrong thing to teach them.

 

[Tricky]

That is a real big "if".For the Feds to raid someone's private property it should be based on evidence not speculation. As screwed up as these religious fanatics may be, they still have rights.

And if you read my last post and link, the CPS seems to have evidence that they are being abused. Lots of them. It is not a real big "if" anymore. Also, it's not the big bad Feds at this point "raiding their private property", but the State of Texas. And they have a right to. A crime was reported on that private property. The person who reported the crime has still not been found. This could be quite serious.

 

[qayak]

Yeah, all humans abuse children. No matter what you teach them, someone else thinks it's the wrong thing to teach them.

It doesn't matter what someone else thinks.

 

[Rufo]

In answer to the question posed by the OP: All fundamentalist, and all moderates, of any religion, abuse children.

You are wrong, and any discussion of it will lead to a completely unjustified derail. Aren't there other threads for this?

 

[skeptifem]

It doesn't matter what someone else thinks.

why dont you start a new 'all religion is child abuse!" thread instead of derailing this thread. the topic has been done to death anyway.

 

[qayak]

You are wrong, and any discussion of it will lead to a completely unjustified derail. Aren't there other threads for this?

No, I'm not and it is completely on topic. It is great to see the police looking at religious groups more and more when it comes to child abuse. Hopefully this trend continues beyond sexual abuse.

 

[qayak]

why dont you start a new 'all religion is child abuse!" thread instead of derailing this thread. the topic has been done to death anyway.

One post late and a dollar short just like always, Nails.

 

[skeptifem]

That is a real big "if".For the Feds to raid someone's private property it should be based on evidence not speculation. As screwed up as these religious fanatics may be, they still have rights.

its pretty hard to get evidence of sexual abuse beyond a victim calling the police w/o some kind of intervention, dont you think?

 

[skeptifem]

One post late and a dollar short just like always, Nails.

wow, what a compelling argument! lol

 

[dudalb]

In answer to the question posed by the OP: All fundamentalist, and all moderates, of any religion, abuse children.

You know how much that sounds like the kind of broad,sweeping,statement that a religious fundementalist would say?
One of the problems I have with the "New Atheism" is that some of it's self proclaimed proponents are a bigoted and close minded as the religious fanatics they hate.

 

[dudalb]

One teenager calls and this is how they react??? One teenager calls in New York City and child services doesn't show up for a month.

Something else was going on here. I don't trust the government in these situations at all. Last time they tried to save the children in a Texas compound, they burned them to death.

Oh, wow, a David Koresh apologists.
And it was Koresh who started the fire the killed the kids, not the BATF, although there is little doubt the BATF throughly scewed up in that operation.

 

[Moochie]

If they really are forcing teenagers into marriage with old men, then I'm kinda okay with the state "freaking out". They obviously haven't sent in the storm troopers or anything and there seems to be cooperation. I hope nothing bad comes of it, but I could stand for something good to come of it, like the state shutting down religions that force children into marriage. I realize that my morality may be different from theirs, but I think most people would agree that this is wrong.

I agree. The adults can do whatever they like, even wear magic underpants as far as I'm concerned, but they shouldn't have the right to mess with their kids' lives.


M.

 

[Rufo]

No, I'm not and it is completely on topic. It is great to see the police looking at religious groups more and more when it comes to child abuse. Hopefully this trend continues beyond sexual abuse.

Okay. Since you insist, maybe an analogy will help to get across my point.

Let's say someone starts a thread with the title "Are fungi plants?". Disregarding the simple answer, let's say the thread picks up a few different viewpoints in addition to the fact that they are not - like that the biological separation of fungi and plants was unjustified, or that fungi should be considered plants, but a subcategory of plants that are separated from all other plants.

At this point, you reply: "In answer to the question posed by the OP: All fungi, all animals, and all living organisms, are plants."

From this, three different conclusions can reasonably be made. That you:
a) are completely oblivious to anything and everything
b) define one or more of the expressions "all", "fungi", "animal", "living organism" and "plant" differently than the generally accepted definitions, including those used by experts
c) have left out vital additional criteria for your statement to even remotely make sense.

Whichever it might be, it will probably derail the thread if discussed further. And if it's one of the latter, you should be able to understand why people disagree with you.

 

[Arkayik]

I don't know if Fundamentalist Mormons Abuse their children, but I believe there is sufficient evidence to prove that some people do abuse their children. That is to say, people abuse children, not the -ism... I know it's nit-picky, but I think it is an important distinction to draw. Lets say for instance, that since these folks reside in the USA, we were to ask, "Do Americans Abuse Children" .... It is an prejudical and bigoted way to phrase the question (IMHO). Then again, I guess you sort of need an inflammatory question to get a thread going....

Having said that, in my anecdotal experience, the level of emphasis placed upon a child's education by their elders/leaders/parents/society, tends to illustrate the inherent level of freedom within the group. That isn't to say the totalitarian societies always lack for educated people, but the fact that these children are kept in an uneducated condition, when good education is within their means, speaks volumes about the intentions of the leadership. I think that when education is within the group's/societie's grasp but not provided, that is abusive, never mind what may or may not be occurring in the bedrooms of these people....

Someone has a sig from Epictetus, which I think says it all.... Personally, I don't aspire to just educate my children, I hope to teach them to think for themselves....

 

[Moochie]

No, the BDAH's burned them to death by refusing to follow legal instuctions. Their choice, their bad.

Yes. The ATF, etc., were rather ham-fisted in their application of the law, but ultimately why didn't Koresh and Co. cooperate? No one had to die that day, and as far as I know, it was the BDs that started the shooting and killing.

We now know what went on in that place and what a freak Koresh was. The government was right to act.


M.