Obama's Pastor: U.S. to Blame for 9/11

[T.A.M.]

When Islamic militants start blowing up buildings in Canada, I will then agree that America's foreign policy has nothing to do with their hatred of the USA.

They dont hate us for "our freedoms" folks. They dont hate us because we eat cheeseburgers and listen to rap music.

They hate us for what we have done in their part of the world. The sooner we accept this, the sooner we can work on the real problem.

They tried. One Weekend I was in Toronto (one weekend in the last 3 years), the RCMP arrested a number of men for plotting to blow up buildings in TO. I cannot recall if they WERE Al-Qaeda, or simply inspired by them.

On a side note, I would say they hate "us" for our freedoms AND for what USA policy in the middle east has wrought.

TAM

 

[IchabodPlain]

They tried. One Weekend I was in Toronto (one weekend in the last 3 years), the RCMP arrested a number of men for plotting to blow up buildings in TO. I cannot recall if they WERE Al-Qaeda, or simply inspired by them.

On a side note, I would say they hate "us" for our freedoms AND for what USA policy in the middle east has wrought.

TAM

Was it in '06? This might be it:

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/06/03/canada.terror/

"This group took steps to acquire three tons of ammonium nitrate and other components necessary to create explosive devices," he said.

"To put this in context, the 1995 bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people took one ton of ammonium nitrate."

The detained suspects are all males, Canadian residents "from a variety of backgrounds" and followers of a "violent ideology inspired by al Qaeda," said Luc Portelance, assistant director of operations for Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

I, personally, don't buy the "they hate us because we've been over there" argument. Look to the extensive list of interventions the US committed and facilitated in S. America, and yet this has never produced outward violence towards the US. Or, look at jihadists killing people in Indonesia, Sudan, Thailand, Somalia, and other countries in which America exerts little to no influence.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are you Geraldine Ferraro?

TAM

There is a difference between single comments people make and people who have ingrained insanity within their personality. The idiot commentators on CNN today were trying to equate Ferraro with Farrakhan. Oooohhh, we have to be fair and balanced, if Obama should have denounced Farrakhan then Clinton should have treated Ferraro's comments with equally complete condemnation.

An analogy for Ferraro's comments are those of Samantha Power. Wright's comments are analogous to Hagee's, and Farrakhan's not Ferraro's. .

 

[Dr Adequate]

You know, thinking about it a little and Obama's refusal to wear a flagpin on his lapel takes on a little more meaning now perhaps?

What was maybe a self described innocuous stance at first now makes me think what if he is buying these sermons much more than he's admitting?

Kinda makes me wonder..

Well, let me set your mind at rest with the word "no".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think it is a tough thing. This man taught Obama about god, about love for his neighbour, and many other righteous things over those 20 years. While the pastor clearly said some very horrible things over those years, they were said in a handful of sermons, out of thousands. To condemn the entire man for some things (yes hateful) he SAID is a little tough for the man who considered him a friend.

Put yourself in his shoes...really, not just a glancing thought of it, but really bury yourself in the situation from Obama's POV, and ask yourself would you condemn and reject THE MAN?

Tough call.

TAM

I'm less concerned about Obama having similar views to Wright, even though one has to wonder why Obama felt that church represented his beliefs. What concerns me more was Obama making the direct claim he wasn't aware of Wright's views and the nature of his sermons.

CNN story

And, even though he has been a member of Trinity United for the past 20 years, Obama said he had never witnessed Wright making such statements.

"Had I heard those statements in the church, I would have told Reverend Wright that I profoundly disagree with them," Obama said, adding, "What I have been hearing and had been hearing in church was talk about Jesus and talk about faith and values and serving the poor."

You can see the statements that I find concerning on this CNN video news clip. Go to the second clip which has Obama's interview with Anderson Cooper and listen about half way through when Obama elaborates on not knowing anything about Wright's comments until the news story on Wright's 9/11 sermon which came out just after Obama's campaign started.

...If I had heard any of these statements I would have left..

Obama does a good job of defending his relationship with Wright. It is reasonable. What bothers me is what seems to be the incredible claim Obama didn't know about Wright's views.

Beyond that, this is Republican campaign fodder. Where McCain's association with Hagee is less likely to hurt him, Obama's association with Wright will no doubt have a different impact because sadly, less people care about Hagee's hate speeches than will be paying attention to Wright's. And yes, I think that is because of lingering racism.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

He was very careful with his words, but at the same time, staked out a precarious position. There are probably teams of Clinton operatives already buying up every preacher DVD and cell phone movie looking for more examples of hate, and they might find the golden bullet - Obama there in the video or confirmed to be there in the church on that date.

Inch by inch, Obama is falling back to earth.

Right, Clinton is evil, a witch, a bad person, and Obama is a saint.

Give me a break. You have no evidence, just personal bias to support this claim. These videos were out there since the beginning of this campaign. What makes you think this is new stuff? What has happened is the videos of Rev Wright went viral on YouTube. If anything the Clinton campaign has been poorly managing the Internet tools in their campaign. It is the Obama camp that has been campaigning with YouTube.

Wright's stuff went viral because it was there and that's what the Internet results in. And as far as falling back to Earth, honeymoons only last so long.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You know, thinking about it a little and Obama's refusal to wear a flagpin on his lapel takes on a little more meaning now perhaps?

What was maybe a self described innocuous stance at first now makes me think what if he is buying these sermons much more than he's admitting?

Kinda makes me wonder..

What nonsense. If Wright's views did reflect Obama's there would be plenty of old Obama speeches and writings that reflected these views at least to some extent. You are drawing conclusions here from your fantasy 101 textbook.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

For a layman no. For a guy running for president of his country I think it does matter to a degree yes.

If you are running for top clone, maybe.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....I, personally, don't buy the "they hate us because we've been over there" argument. Look to the extensive list of interventions the US committed and facilitated in S. America, and yet this has never produced outward violence towards the US.

You are apparently not paying attention. The blowback from the atrocities the US was involved in in Latin America has been there off and on. Right now it is on with Venezuela. The difference is in the continent we are physically connected to, we have closer cultural ties and exchanges. And change has come gradually in Latin America so that a lot of resentment has been released more slowly over time. And prosperity makes a difference. When people are not in despair, resentment does not take on the same expression. That is probably the biggest difference. You need hate and despair, not just hate.

Or, look at jihadists killing people in Indonesia, Sudan, Thailand, Somalia, and other countries in which America exerts little to no influence.

Little or no influence! Are you really that poorly informed?

The United States and the Overthrow of Sukarno, 1965-1967 The US was involved in what

the CIA itself has called "one of the worst mass murders of the twentieth century

We topped ourselves however with the bloodbath that followed the assasination of Allende in Chile.

Then there was East Timor...

East Timor Revisited: FORD, KISSINGER AND THE INDONESIAN INVASION, 1975-76

Ford and Kissinger Gave Green Light to Indonesia's Invasion of East Timor, 1975: New Documents Detail Conversations with Suharto National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 62; Edited by William Burr and Michael L. Evans

For SE Asia and Africa, the US has had a mixed role but more often than not we have supported corporate rights while human rights were ignored. The reputation of this country hasn't developed in isolation of the role we've played around the world in developing nations. We may have done some good things such as supporting the ending of Apartheid, but we've also been involved in human rights tragedies like the destruction of the land of the Ogoni tribe by the pollution of Shell Oil operations in Nigeria.

Letter from Africa: U.S. influence dwindles on a restless continent

"The actual ability of the U.S. to influence circumstances on the ground in Africa has declined dramatically," said Michael Clough, a former director of the Africa program of the Council on Foreign Relations. "But the symbolic significance of the United States is still there. So we become the perfect target."...

For example, there is Sudan, a country that the West, and the United States in particular, has desperately tried to isolate. First, it was because of Sudan's links to terrorists. Then came reports that the government was tied to genocide in Darfur. Sanctions have been imposed, almost embarrassing amounts of diplomatic pressure have been exerted and now military threats are being made. The result: even more anti-American hatred, which plays straight into the hands of the hard-line Khartoum regime.

Ken Wiwa: In the Shadow of a Saint

Wiwa was twenty-six years old when his father, the outspoken advocate for the economic and environmental rights of the Ogoni people in Nigeria, was executed by hanging on November 10, 1995, in Port Harcourt, Nigeria. His father's death was headline news internationally and his name became a potent symbol in the struggle between indigenous peoples and the forces of globalization....Ken Saro-Wiwa had been arrested on May 21st, 1994, and although no charges were laid, the government alleged that he had conspired to kill four Ogoni chiefs in a riot earlier that day. It is widely believed that Ken Saro-Wiwa and the eight other Ogoni men were truly on trial for having effectively organized the Ogoni people, into the Movement for the Survival of the Ogoni People (MOSOP), to stand up for their rights in the face of abuse from the Nigerian dictatorship and the Shell Oil Company.

"Shell has never owned up to its mistakes and it continues to practice double-standards in Ogoni, Nigeria", Wiwa told a packed auditorium in Pound Hall. "Numerous human rights and environmental abuses continue to occur in Ogoni till today" he said. Wiwa recommended that Shell should go back and own up to its wrongdoings in Ogoni.

Shell Oil is the US as far as many people are concerned. And the Shell Oil situation is but one example of hundreds

 

[CFLarsen]

Right, Clinton is evil, a witch, a bad person, and Obama is a saint.

You are such a hypocrite.

You never waste an opportunity to sow doubt about Obama's motives. At the same time, you consistantly ignore and downplay anything that can even remotely be seen as critical of your own favored political candidate, Hillary Clinton.

Drop the hypocrisy, please. Admit that you are a fanatical Hillary supporter. Be honest.

Is that really too much to ask? Or do you really want to claim that you are not biased in any way when it comes to which candidate you prefer?

Maybe you want to argue that hypocrisy and bias is OK, as long as you do it?

 

[dudalb]

Obama went to the church for 20 years, but he didn't inhale.

That's the problem.
That Obama went to the church for 20 years and was not aware of Wright's viewpoints striked me as being,very,very,hard to believe.
It makes Obama look either foolish or like he is trying to dodge the issue.
Look,I do not think that Obama shares Wright's views. But that Obama went to the guy's church for over 20 years and was not aware of them....I just cannot buy that. Obama should have stated he was aware of Wright's views,never agreed with them,but tolerated his political rants because of his worth as a pastor in other areas.
The real damage is that Obama is looking more and more like just another politician instead of the almost messainic figure some of his supporters were making out.IMHO that is gone forever.

 

[dudalb]

You are such a hypocrite.

You never waste an opportunity to sow doubt about Obama's motives. At the same time, you consistantly ignore and downplay anything that can even remotely be seen as critical of your own favored political candidate, Hillary Clinton.

Drop the hypocrisy, please. Admit that you are a fanatical Hillary supporter. Be honest.

Is that really too much to ask? Or do you really want to claim that you are not biased in any way when it comes to which candidate you prefer?

Maybe you want to argue that hypocrisy and bias is OK, as long as you do it?

I have to agree.
The wierd thing is I have been a Skeptic on Obama...I never bought into the "Obama is the next Lincolm" hype...but Skeptigirl's blind devotation to Hilary is just as bad as the worst Obama supporter's devotion to Obama.
I think there will be some disillusiion with Obama because of this: Not so much because he shares Wright's views..which I think he does not...but because he is having to convince people that he was a parashioner for 20 years and was not aware of them. The most people are going to find impossible to believe.
End result; Obama is doing a song and dance about this. That makes him like every other politician but it will hurt him because he has been claiming to be a "different" kind of politician. If you set up higher standards for yourself, the impact will be greater if you don't live up to them then somebody who never claimed to be a paragon of virtue.

 

[corplinx]

That's the problem.
That Obama went to the church for 20 years and was not aware of Wright's viewpoints striked me as being,very,very,hard to believe.
It makes Obama look either foolish or like he is trying to dodge the issue.
Look,I do not think that Obama shares Wright's views. But that Obama went to the guy's church for over 20 years and was not aware of them....I just cannot buy that. Obama should have stated he was aware of Wright's views,never agreed with them,but tolerated his political rants because of his worth as a pastor in other areas.
The real damage is that Obama is looking more and more like just another politician instead of the almost messainic figure some of his supporters were making out.IMHO that is gone forever.

This is cognitive dissonance along the lines of finding out that McCain is a dues paid member of the John Birch society but saying "he just sat through the meetings, I doubt be believed it".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Blind devotion to Hilary? I'd say more like biased reading of my posts that have led you to miss criticisms of Clinton I have posted. But then, I am not surprised. That is typical of the skeptics in the politics forums. Some of us maintain our skeptic principles and others don't. I'm confident I maintain at least greater than average degree of skepticism about political subject matter.

 

[CFLarsen]

I have to agree.
The wierd thing is I have been a Skeptic on Obama...I never bought into the "Obama is the next Lincolm" hype...but Skeptigirl's blind devotation to Hilary is just as bad as the worst Obama supporter's devotion to Obama.

Oh, no. I strongly disagree. It's worse. Far, far worse.

At least Obama's supporters admit that they are biased. Hey, they have found someone whom they believe can fulfill their political dreams.

Fair enough. Not particularly rational, but what in politics is?

Skeptigirl on the other hand demands credibility because of her claimed unbiased stance. But she clearly isn't biased - she is a political propagandist of the worst kind: The self-serving, hypocritical kind.

Skeptigirl's blind fanaticism does Hillary's campaign far more harm than any of Obama's pastors. At least Wright is honest about his beliefs. His views are subjected to public scrutiny. He took the fall for it. Skeptigirl's views are designed to undermine the opponent behind the curtain.

It is hypocrisy. It is cowardice. It is a poulty feces tactic. Throw the most dirt, from behind the safety of a forum, to see what sticks.

But to face the press, or the public with her dirty accusations, with her name behind them? Never in a million years.

 

[T.A.M.]

I'm less concerned about Obama having similar views to Wright, even though one has to wonder why Obama felt that church represented his beliefs. What concerns me more was Obama making the direct claim he wasn't aware of Wright's views and the nature of his sermons.

CNN story

You can see the statements that I find concerning on this CNN video news clip. Go to the second clip which has Obama's interview with Anderson Cooper and listen about half way through when Obama elaborates on not knowing anything about Wright's comments until the news story on Wright's 9/11 sermon which came out just after Obama's campaign started.Obama does a good job of defending his relationship with Wright. It is reasonable. What bothers me is what seems to be the incredible claim Obama didn't know about Wright's views.

Beyond that, this is Republican campaign fodder. Where McCain's association with Hagee is less likely to hurt him, Obama's association with Wright will no doubt have a different impact because sadly, less people care about Hagee's hate speeches than will be paying attention to Wright's. And yes, I think that is because of lingering racism.

I can see your concern, and I feel it is legitimate. This connection will likely be a talking point in the November election. Hillary has a tonne of baggage that would make its way into the Fall election, no doubt. Whitewater, ring any bells? Impeachment hearings? I am sure I could go on. Same applies to McCain...GWB is enough to say on this matter.

They all have baggage.

As for the part I bolded, I am sure the church you speak of, on the whole, taught a lot of good christian values. To equate the church as a whole, with a couple of hate filled sermons...well it is a strawman.

TAM

 

[Iamme]

Pat Robertson also claimed that Hurricane Katrina was punishment for New Orleans' sinful nature. Oh, and gays...

Oddly enough, San Fransisco has had earthquakes and fire. Even right during prime tv time for the whole world to be witness to on tv, which is doubly interesting. I was watching that night, by the way.)

Has Salt Lake City had anything to speak of?

 

[TriskettheKid]

Oddly enough, San Fransisco has had earthquakes and fire. Even right during prime tv time for the whole world to be witness to on tv, which is doubly interesting. I was watching that night, by the way.)

Has Salt Lake City had anything to speak of?

Mormons?

 

[bigred]

To equate the church as a whole, with a couple of hate filled sermons...well it is a strawman.

That is more than a little debatable, given:

a - the preacher in question
b - preachers being the head (and in many ways, heart and soul) of a church
c - his successor backing him all the way
d - the overall denominational leaders doing the same

NONE of them have backed down even a billionth of an inch regarding any of his statements; hell they're proud of them and continue to stand by them. Oh and e) I also haven't exactly heard anything about the congregation leaving in droves or denouncing ANY of this.

Sorry, no strawman. This sucker is made of brick.

 

[corplinx]

To equate the church as a whole, with a couple of hate filled sermons...well it is a strawman.

1. The weird doctrine of the church which comes off as some sort of weird black power religion http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
2. Wright's trip with Farrakhan to visit Gaddafi when he was financier of terrorism and a state enemy of the US
3. Wright gave Farrakhan a lifetime achievement award in his own name in 2007
4. Michelle Obama's "gaffes" suddenly fit into place

The clips that have been making their rounds were just the most inflammatory statements. The ABC people who combed through the old sermons said that found much more anti-american rhetoric in his sermons.