Obama's Pastor: U.S. to Blame for 9/11

[Undesired Walrus]

Parky, why the refusal to capitalise?

 

[Dr Adequate]

I don't like the remarks of Obama's pastor. On the other hand, I don't think Obama should be held responsible for them, 'cos if people had to select a church where they agreed with their pastor about everything, then everyone would have to form their own church.

I speak with feeling: I used to belong to a church where the pastor was a perfect model Christian, and also to the right of me. An excellent man: people referred to our congregation as "Dave's church", and they didn't mean it as a jibe. We used to argue the toss about censorship and the death penalty, but not during his sermons.

 

[latent aaaack]

I don't like the remarks of Obama's pastor. On the other hand, I don't think Obama should be held responsible for them, 'cos if people had to select a church where they agreed with their pastor about everything, then everyone would have to form their own church.

I speak with feeling: I used to belong to a church where the pastor was a perfect model Christian, and also to the right of me. An excellent man: people referred to our congregation as "Dave's church", and they didn't mean it as a jibe. We used to argue the toss about censorship and the death penalty, but not during his sermons.

Would you remain an attending member of the church if the pastor angrily clamored that AIDS was invented by the government and the 7/7 bombings were brought on by the UK's own terrorism? And then go on to respect him enough to name your most political book that contained your personal manifesto after one of his sermons, and still consider him so close as to be like part of your family (Obama's words)?

The vast majority of Americans I think would leave because of a pastor with these extremist views and wouldn't want to be a part of a church community that believes this kind of extremist sentiment acceptable in sermons or closely enough in line with their's.

More broadly this is exactly what you get when you out of desperation vault a candidate to presidential nominee status that hasn't been vetted and tested over a long career in the public eye in politics. More of this should be expected along with more disturbing suprises in debates and such like advocating invading Pakistan, or maybe these suprises will be contained until he's in office.

 

[BPSCG]

I don't like the remarks of Obama's pastor. On the other hand, I don't think Obama should be held responsible for them, 'cos if people had to select a church where they agreed with their pastor about everything, then everyone would have to form their own church.

True enough, but isn't there a difference between disagreeing with your pastor about whether sloth is a worse sin than gluttony, and disagreeing with him about whether America is a country worthy of God's damnation?

My mom recently sent me a photocopy of a letter my father had written to the minister of our Unitarian church back in 1962, when Israel was trying Adolf Eichmann for his war crimes. Evidently the minister had, in a sermon, opposed Israel's plans to execute Eichmann on the grounds that execution carried out in the spirit of revenge is dehumanizing. My dad agreed that the spirit of vengeance is something to be avoided at all costs when trying to administer justice. But he argued that vengeance was not the sole motivation for executing Eichmann; there are crimes so vicious that society has a right to protect itself from its perpetrators (essentially, the social contract argument). What struck me was that even though my father disagreed with the minister, his tone was always respectful, and he never questioned the minister's integrity or good will.

How could Obama possibly not question Wright's integrity or good will? This isn't some arcane theological point Wright is arguing; he is arguing that America - not Bush, not the current administration, but the country - needs to be cursed for its crimes. How can someone who wants to be the President of the United States not condemn that in the strongest possible terms? How can someone who wants to be the President of the United States associate with such a person for over twenty years? How could someone who wants to be the President of the United States not walk out in disgust on hearing such a sermon, and begin searching for a new church?

There's something jarring that doesn't fit here.

 

[Dr Adequate]

True enough, but isn't there a difference between disagreeing with your pastor about whether sloth is a worse sin than gluttony, and disagreeing with him about whether America is a country worthy of God's damnation?

Well according to evangelical theology, we're all worthy of damnation.

You've not talked about your own past, that I recall --- were you raised as a Christian?

My mom recently sent me a photocopy of a letter my father had written to the minister of our Unitarian church back in 1962, when Israel was trying Adolf Eichmann for his war crimes. Evidently the minister had, in a sermon, opposed Israel's plans to execute Eichmann on the grounds that execution carried out in the spirit of revenge is dehumanizing. My dad agreed that the spirit of vengeance is something to be avoided at all costs when trying to administer justice. But he argued that vengeance was not the sole motivation for executing Eichmann; there are crimes so vicious that society has a right to protect itself from its perpetrators (essentially, the social contract argument). What struck me was that even though my father disagreed with the minister, his tone was always respectful, and he never questioned the minister's integrity or good will.

Which is what I'm talking about. This is a disagreement between two Christians of goodwill, it's not a reason why your father should have left the church and started his own First Cartheginian Church Of The Hanging Adolf Eichman Issue.

How could Obama possibly not question Wright's integrity or good will? This isn't some arcane theological point Wright is arguing; he is arguing that America - not Bush, not the current administration, but the country - needs to be cursed for its crimes. How can someone who wants to be the President of the United States not condemn that in the strongest possible terms? How can someone who wants to be the President of the United States associate with such a person for over twenty years? How could someone who wants to be the President of the United States not walk out in disgust on hearing such a sermon, and begin searching for a new church?

There's something jarring that doesn't fit here.

Like yourself, I should like to hear what Obama has to say on this subject. Now that it's been raised. But what you seem to be trying to suggest is that Obama should already have denounced his pastor and searched for new churches. I don't agree.

 

[Brainster]

its not a conspiracy theory to believe that 9-11 was the result of decades of american interference in the affairs of muslim countries. its not paranoia to believe that muslims are very very angry at the usa because of out hypocritical policies in their part of the world.

Um, are you suggesting that Osama and Khalid Sheikh Muhammed are rational? Let me remind you that OBL listed three issues in his fatwa against the US:

1. The existence of US soldiers in bases on the Saudi Peninsula.
2. The sanctions against Iraq.
3. Our support for Israel.

Which of those would you say is a hypocritical policy? Which is American interference?

9-11 deniars deny the clear evidence infront of their very eyes about 9-11. neo-conservatives are sometimes the exact same way. thats because they share something very basic with 9-11 deniars.

extremism to the point of denying the reality that everyone else on the planet seems able to grasp.

Sigh. You don't even know what a neoconservative is if you believe they are extremists.

 

[Drysdale]

Lets flip this.

If a white presidential candidate was a 20 year member of a church where the reverend espewed white supremacy views would he not be attacked viciously in the press and more than likely forced to withdraw from the candidacy?

And really rightfully so.

Yet Obama gets a free pass once again. Wow...

 

[Dr Adequate]

Lets flip this.

If a white presidential candidate was a 20 year member of a church where the reverend espewed white supremacy views would he not be attacked viciously in the press and more than likely forced to withdraw from the candidacy?

And really rightfully so.

Yes.

Yet Obama gets a free pass once again. Wow...

Yes. Yes he does. This is a man who rose to prominence by telling the Democratic Convention that Republicans were good folks; a devout Christian who holds out the olive branch to unbelievers; and a black man who celebrated MLK Day by telling black people that they were bigoted.

So I am inclined to give him a "free pass" on belonging to a church with a pastor whom I don't agree with.

 

[latent aaaack]

Lets flip this.

If a white presidential candidate was a 20 year member of a church where the reverend espewed white supremacy views would he not be attacked viciously in the press and more than likely forced to withdraw from the candidacy?

And really rightfully so.

Yet Obama gets a free pass once again. Wow...

The threshold for 'racism' by blacks should be a lot higher but this pastor isn't merely making fun of white people trying to dance, he's saying something incredibly politically inflammatory and demonizable by proxy so I agree with your comparison. The fact he gave Obama his religion basically by Obama being so impressed with his sermons and ideas is another warning sign at least on par with Bush pre-2000 warning signs.

A victorious Obama in November would be the best possible thing for right wing militaristic authoritarian extremists like the worst of McCain's ex-competitors and would pave the way for the likes of Huckabee in 2012. They get a 'I didn't do it' free pass out of the unwinnable Iraq war and a stabbed-in-the-back myth propogates against a whole host of easily demonized entities that Obama singularly provides them.

Yes, I realize I'm a little too good at thinking like one of them. If there's another major terror attack in the US after an Iraq pull out and/or nuclear armed Iran in coming years during an Obama or Clinton presidency I would seriously wonder about the US remaining a democracy, given the trend of the last 8 years under a much lighter version of this cycle's very extreme republican candidates.

If you think that's too hasty then you might not have been listening to what many of this cycle's candidates, Romney for example, have been saying about democrats. It's clear they view them more then ever as an enemy within that's surrendering to our enemies the terrorists. It seems to have evaded many democrats that their 'closest ever to a dictatorship' (House leader's words) political opponents are a strong long term power that needs to be negotiated with carefully not temporarily flailed against and inflammatorily antagonized, like by calling the Iraq war a "dumb war idealogically rammed down our throats" as Obama artfully did shortly before it began.

 

[kallsop]

I haven't read of any direct evidence that Obama in any way agrees with the garbage that this preacher dispenses. On the other hand, his wife seems to be a charter member of the We Hate America club, Blame Whitey subdivision.

It's certainly is a legitimate question of judgment as to why Obama would voluntarily attend this church and listen to that ignorant racist fool. Not only passively attend, but seek out this preacher for family services such as baptism.

A swift rebuke and three Hail Mary's should cover it.

Of particular interest is if the national media will file this into the Top Secret vault along with the Rezko trial, or run with it.

 

[Lurker]

So conservative is the new mainstream? Who knew?

And how is having someone appear on a news program "embracing" him? One of Fred Phelps's minions was on Hannity and Colmes some time ago, and they spent the segment tag-teaming to see who could beat her up the worst. Was that "embracing" her?

Robertson has been on H&C and has never been "tag-teamed". Hannity loves him! Robertson has been on FoxNEws uncountable times. I'd say that is conservative media embracing him. They sure aren't disatncing themselves from the dude.

Please explain what you mean by Falwell and Robertson being "embraced" by conservative media. Examples would be helpful. And if you can tie any presidential candidate to either of them with more than a one-day visit for a stump speech and a grip-and-grin photo-op, I'm sure we'd all be interested to see that.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200504020001 where Robertson is provided a forum on FoxNews to discuss Sciavo. No dissent.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,308997,00.html where Republican candidate for President Rudy Giuliani formally accepts Robertson's endorsement for President.

 

[BPSCG]

You've not talked about your own past, that I recall --- were you raised as a Christian?

Hee. French Jewish father, French Catholic mother.

The Frenchman is nothing if not pious. He is not content to be pious all by himself, he requires his neighbor to be pious also - otherwise he will kill him and make him so. Yes, if that neighbor declines to live a holy life, he will take an axe and convert him.

Imagine the joy with which my pious French Catholic grandparents greeted the announcement. My mom pretty much started giving up on Catholicism at about the age most people start thinking about these kinds of things, and today she is a confirmed Spinozist - as was my father.

Calling a Unitarian a Christian is about like calling an Irishman a Canadian.

Which is what I'm talking about. This is a disagreement between two Christians of goodwill, it's not a reason why your father should have left the church and started his own First Cartheginian Church Of The Hanging Adolf Eichman Issue.

Correct. Does Wright strike you as a "Christian of goodwill"?

Like yourself, I should like to hear what Obama has to say on this subject. Now that it's been raised. But what you seem to be trying to suggest is that Obama should already have denounced his pastor and searched for new churches. I don't agree.

But again, this isn't just some minor dispute over some arcane theological point. I don't understand how Obama could, on the one hand, claim to love America, and on the other, stand to listen to someone screaming invective at America from the pulpit.

My father and his minister obviously didn't see eye to eye on Eichmann. But dad didn't leave the church for that, because he knew they shared similar values. But he would have left, never to return, had that minister proclaimed that the Jews brought Eichmann on themselves and shouted for God to damn America. There comes a point where your differences are so great that you have to break with someone. Evidently, Obama never thought his differences with Wright were significant enough to cause him to leave. Why?

BTW, I stopped going to Unitarian churches because I didn't like the ill-disguised liberal/leftist messages coming from the pulpit. And the message coming from those pulpits was a lot milder than what I saw coming from Rev. Wright's mouth on the TV this morning.

 

[Drudgewire]

A preacher falling for woo? That's a first.

 

[Lurker]

Regarding Obama and his pastor. We have no way of knowing how much of Pastor Wright's message Obama has been privy to in years past. I am sure that there are many things that I might not agree with that my pastor has said over the years that I am unaware of.

Of course, now that some of these things are coming to light, perhaps Obama might want to consider commenting on them.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Correct. Does Wright strike you as a "Christian of goodwill"?

I've not read enough to judge, but I'm guessing no, not entirely.

But again, this isn't just some minor dispute over some arcane theological point. I don't understand how Obama could, on the one hand, claim to love America, and on the other, stand to listen to someone screaming invective at America from the pulpit.

My father and his minister obviously didn't see eye to eye on Eichmann. But dad didn't leave the church for that, because he knew they shared similar values. But he would have left, never to return, had that minister proclaimed that the Jews brought Eichmann on themselves and shouted for God to damn America. There comes a point where your differences are so great that you have to break with someone. Evidently, Obama never thought his differences with Wright were significant enough to cause him to leave. Why?

BTW, I stopped going to Unitarian churches because I didn't like the ill-disguised liberal/leftist messages coming from the pulpit. And the message coming from those pulpits was a lot milder than what I saw coming from Rev. Wright's mouth on the TV this morning.

Like you, I'd like to hear what Obama has to say on the subject. I don't think he should be held responsible for the whackier remarks of his pastor, but I'd like to see him distance himself from them.

 

[Lurker]

Like you, I'd like to hear what Obama has to say on the subject. I don't think he should be held responsible for the whackier remarks of his pastor, but I'd like to see him distance himself from them.

Opps, Obama already has: http://mediamatters.org/items/200803140002?f=h_latest

The Times reported on April 30, 2007:

On the Sunday after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, Mr. Wright said the attacks were a consequence of violent American policies. Four years later he wrote that the attacks had proved that "people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just 'disappeared' as the Great White West went on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns."

Provocative Assertions

Such statements involve "a certain deeply embedded anti-Americanism," said Michael Cromartie, vice president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a conservative group that studies religious issues and public policy. "A lot of people are going to say to Mr. Obama, are these your views?"

Mr. Obama says they are not.

"The violence of 9/11 was inexcusable and without justification," he said in a recent interview. He was not at Trinity the day Mr. Wright delivered his remarks shortly after the attacks, Mr. Obama said, but "it sounds like he was trying to be provocative."

 

[Oliver]

I honestly don't know when Obama's Pastor did enter the presidential race, but here's the youtube about the boring, irrational, unrelated hype:



And quite frankly - this guy most probably would be banned by the church over here.

ETA: Oh wait ... Does that mean Obama isn't a muslim? (anymore?)

 

[Dr Adequate]

Opps, Obama already has: http://mediamatters.org/items/200803140002?f=h_latest

That looks like a clear and unambiguous statement. I look forward to the attempts of the whackjob right to spin it so that it isn't.

 

[BPSCG]

Robertson has been on H&C and has never been "tag-teamed". Hannity loves him!

And Colmes? I almost never watch the program - too much heat, not enough light - but I know enough about it that there's no way Colmes wouldn't give him a hard time.

Robertson has been on FoxNEws uncountable times.

Now, wait a minute. If they're talking about, say, abortion, and they want someone from the Christian right to give his point of view, why wouldn't they invite Robertson - along with the president of N.O.W. and N.A.R.L. to get the opposite side? Are you going to tell me there are no liberal repeat guests on Fox News? There's one guy - I forget his name - who's on there all the time - fat Democrat who used to be (still is?) a campaign adviser. I guess Fox is "embracing" him, too.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,308997,00.html where Republican candidate for President Rudy Giuliani formally accepts Robertson's endorsement for President.

Sorry, that's a grip-and-grin, right there with Obama getting the restaurant workers' union endorsement just before the Nevada primary.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

I honestly don't know when Obama's Pastor did enter the presidential race, but here's the youtube about the boring, irrational, unrelated hype:



And quite frankly - this guy most probably would be banned by the church over here.

ETA: Oh wait ... Does that mean Obama isn't a muslim? (anymore?)

Urk. Can you stop for the love of $DEITY, using Youtube links?

Anyway, it's none of the above. Pastors are supposed to play a big role in the life of a person, and what is Obama?